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Do you really think the US citizens can win a war against the DOD? With handguns?

rayiner 7y ago
Assault rifles, which are protected by the Second Amendment. But that’s besides the point. Real revolutions aren’t like in sci-fi dystopias, with an unflinching authoritarian government and a military that obeys every order to mow down rows of civilians. There are competing political factions, and the military is just ordinary people who will do some things for the government, but who will break ranks if pushed too far. For example, the French Republicans didn’t march into a field and square off head-to-head with the royal army. They stormed the Bastille to get the weapons there then caused a bunch of ruckus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille. What followed was a complex mix of political events and violence that led to the downfall of the monarchy. A more recent example: Bangladesh won its independence when fighting caused Bangladeshi members of the Pakistan military to defect. The hostilities then drew in military support from neighboring India. But you can’t start the war if all you have is kitchen knives.
- ac29 7y ago
  > Assault rifles, which are protected by the Second Amendment. Perhaps that's your interpretation, but the second amendment doesn't specifically allow or disallow any particular type of armament (an armament being defined in the dictionary as "military weapons and equipment"). Reasonable people agree that not all military weapons should be able to be owned by civilians - I don't think anyone serious is coming out in defense of civilians owning intercontinental nuclear missiles, for example. Where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion (and disagreement).
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Around 1800, private citizens owned cannons, which were pretty much the top-of-the-line military technology at the time. (At a minimum, there were privately-owned merchant vessels with cannons.) So at least at that time, there were no limits. This does not mean that I am in favor of private citizens today having nukes, or even howitzers. I'm just saying, at the time of the Second Amendment, it was more or less unlimited.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    What the Second Amendment protects isn’t a matter of opinion and abstract line drawing. The Second Amendment by its terms protects the right to “bear arms.” It precludes banning “arms” as a category. Now you can draw lines about what is or is not an “arm” that someone may “bear.” (You probably can’t bear, i.e. carry, a nuclear weapon. On the other hand, the Constitution expressly contemplates private ownership of warships.) But you’re stuck drawing lines with respect to that term. And its hard to draw a line where handguns are “arms” but assault rifles are not.
    - hundt 7y ago
      I'm not sure I understand your argument. I assume you mean "assault weapons" because actual "assault rifles" (capable of automatic or burst fire) are not generally legal to own in the U.S. But your argument would apply equally well to these banned assault rifles (they are clearly "arms"), so doesn't that mean your argument is wrong?
      - rayiner 7y ago
        If fully automatic rifles are “clearly ‘arms’” (as you put it) then a blanket ban on them is unconstitutional.
        pinkfoot 7y ago
        Presumably, so would a ban on shoulder-launched nuclear weapons?

Assault rifles, which are protected by the Second Amendment. But that’s besides the point. Real revolutions aren’t like in sci-fi dystopias, with an unflinching authoritarian government and a military that obeys every order to mow down rows of civilians. There are competing political factions, and the military is just ordinary people who will do some things for the government, but who will break ranks if pushed too far. For example, the French Republicans didn’t march into a field and square off head-to-head with the royal army. They stormed the Bastille to get the weapons there then caused a bunch of ruckus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille. What followed was a complex mix of political events and violence that led to the downfall of the monarchy. A more recent example: Bangladesh won its independence when fighting caused Bangladeshi members of the Pakistan military to defect. The hostilities then drew in military support from neighboring India. But you can’t start the war if all you have is kitchen knives.

ac29 7y ago
> Assault rifles, which are protected by the Second Amendment. Perhaps that's your interpretation, but the second amendment doesn't specifically allow or disallow any particular type of armament (an armament being defined in the dictionary as "military weapons and equipment"). Reasonable people agree that not all military weapons should be able to be owned by civilians - I don't think anyone serious is coming out in defense of civilians owning intercontinental nuclear missiles, for example. Where the line is drawn is a matter of opinion (and disagreement).
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Around 1800, private citizens owned cannons, which were pretty much the top-of-the-line military technology at the time. (At a minimum, there were privately-owned merchant vessels with cannons.) So at least at that time, there were no limits. This does not mean that I am in favor of private citizens today having nukes, or even howitzers. I'm just saying, at the time of the Second Amendment, it was more or less unlimited.
- rayiner 7y ago
  What the Second Amendment protects isn’t a matter of opinion and abstract line drawing. The Second Amendment by its terms protects the right to “bear arms.” It precludes banning “arms” as a category. Now you can draw lines about what is or is not an “arm” that someone may “bear.” (You probably can’t bear, i.e. carry, a nuclear weapon. On the other hand, the Constitution expressly contemplates private ownership of warships.) But you’re stuck drawing lines with respect to that term. And its hard to draw a line where handguns are “arms” but assault rifles are not.
  - hundt 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand your argument. I assume you mean "assault weapons" because actual "assault rifles" (capable of automatic or burst fire) are not generally legal to own in the U.S. But your argument would apply equally well to these banned assault rifles (they are clearly "arms"), so doesn't that mean your argument is wrong?
    - rayiner 7y ago
      If fully automatic rifles are “clearly ‘arms’” (as you put it) then a blanket ban on them is unconstitutional.
      - pinkfoot 7y ago
        Presumably, so would a ban on shoulder-launched nuclear weapons?