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I have 2 BMWs and a Tesla, and I'm a 20 year member of the BMW Car Club of America. There are a lot of things BMW does better than Tesla. But the Tesla experie

by rconti 7y ago

I have 2 BMWs and a Tesla, and I'm a 20 year member of the BMW Car Club of America. There are a lot of things BMW does better than Tesla. But the Tesla experience is more than just bolting an electric motor into an existing car. In other words, I don't want a legacy BMW with an all-electric drivetrain. I'd like them to rethink the car in the ways Tesla has. I laugh every time I see a 3-series ad touting all the advanced tech, where the guy's dancing around, and holds his smartphone to the door handle to unlock the car. This just looks so laughably stupid. I'm sure this isn't the way it ACTUALLY works (I think they're demonstrating that they have the same phone key tech that Tesla does?) but I honestly don't know.

rootusrootus 7y ago
I can't understand why anyone would think unlocking with a smartphone up to the doorhandle is an improvement. Plenty of cars have had proximity authentication and touchless door unlocking for years. Granted, with a fob rather than a phone, but I'm not sure I see that as a negative.
- rconti 7y ago
  It's definitely not. And I think the BMW ad is just a ham-fisted PR firm trying to find a visual way of conveying that you don't need a physical keyfob. I assume it works the same way Tesla's system does, but I don't know that for a fact. Wait, actually you apparently need a Samsung phone? It uses NFC? Okay, it's worse than the Tesla system. https://mashable.com/2018/02/26/bmw-digital-key-smartphones/ https://mashable.com/2018/02/26/bmw-digital-key-smartphones/
  - rconti 7y ago
    Actually, the more I read about it, the more annoyed I get, and the more it proves my original point. There are valid critiques of Tesla forcing people to use bluetooth phone key functionality; especially when the Model 3 was new, it was pretty much a dumpster fire on Android; I assume this must have improved. But it works flawlessly on iOS (1 year and 18k miles later), and BMW's implementation is just so janky and horrible. Sorry for the ugly PDF link. You need a Samsung phone You need to pair the car with some app You have to buy Comfort Access on your car You have to pay $100 after your first year to use it You have to hold the phone or keycard up to the door handle. The one advantage it has over the bluetooth system is it apparently works with a dead battery on your phone. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=22&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjp0-CAk4jkAhViFjQIHQRgCiYQFjAVegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwusa.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbmwusa%2Fconnected-drive%2Fpdf%2FGSG_DigitalKey.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2AicXaW9jRZKFJiXEnO84T https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      Yeah that does not sound terribly convenient. Trying to solve a problem that does not really seem to exist, probably because they feel like they need to keep up with Tesla in some way. I love new technology, but as someone who has to carry around a couple keys anyway, having a small fob on my keyring is not much of a burden, and the door unlocks when I touch it (provided the fob is on my person). Push button to start, never touch the fob, so using the phone the way BMW has it set up would be a step backwards in functionality. And of course they want $100. This is the same company that charges for Apple CarPlay. Sigh. I want to like BMW, but their recent history has been disappointing in many ways.
      - rconti 7y ago
        Yup. I bought a Golf R in 2015, after BMW brought the 3 series wagon (f31) to the US without a manual transmission for the first time. Honestly, a top-end Golf is nicer than the lower-end BMWs. The Golf had the fob-based touchless/keyless entry like BMW, and it worked flawlessly. Really loved it. (I now have a 2011 X5 with the same type system).
    - slovette 7y ago
      It’s like that because it’s not BMW developing the tech and it’s likely not BMW collecting the recurring revenue. Mass market cars now-a-days are a Frankenstein of niche hardware and software firms stitching together an end product. This is one of the things Tesla has a hidden edge on. From my understanding, it’s all in-house. It does mean there’s two much going on at Tesla at once, which is why the short comings on quality I think. But it also means the only gap from now to domination for them is time. I LOVE BMW btw, owned several. But I’m not blind to the fact that most of the car isn’t BMW at all. And all those firms are trying to squeeze margins by reducing development time.
persistent 7y ago
I think this is what the other poster was getting at: for some reason Tesla boosters think other people are copying the design of their keyless entry system, but even a base-model Honda Civic comes with keyless, touchless entry with walk-away automatic locking. This has not been a premium feature, or even a novelty, for years.
- rconti 7y ago
  I'm not talking about keyless entry which still requires you to carry a keyfob, and it should be clear given that I indicated that I own the cars in question. I'm talking about (bluetooth proximity) phone key, which apparently still is a novelty, because, as far as I know, Tesla was the first to have it, and BMW is advertising a similar system, although I don't know how it works. Their ads make it look vastly inferior, but presumably, they haven't designed a system where you have to take your phone out of your pocket and hold it up to the door handle, as this would be a step BACKWARDS from BMW's existing Comfort Access system, which uses RFID in the keyfob, and unlocks the car when you put your hand through the doorcup.
  - persistent 7y ago
    Honestly curious why anyone would prefer a bluetooth system over an RF fob, especially an RF fob with physical key backup like Honda provides. Having to have a working and charged iPhone every time you want to open or close your car seems like a fundamentally terrible idea.
    - rconti 7y ago
      There was a lot of critique about this on the Tesla forums when the car first came out. I think this is a legitimate criticism. Particularly with Android phones having such difficulty; many people had to resort to toggling bluetooth on and off as they approached the car to make it work. This was never an issue with iOS, but there's obviously a huge potential for an issue (buggy software update with unintended consequences, either on the iOS/Android or Tesla side). Our issues were limited to 2 instances: 1. When the car was delivered, it took them about a week to add the car to our Tesla/app account (which is the only way you can pair the car to the phone's bluetooth; once it's paired there is no app required), which meant we had to use the backup RFID keycards, which is more of a pain than it sounds like. Yes, you COULD carry it like a fob, but it's light and thin and could much more easily get lost (on day 1 I dropped it out of my running shorts onto the floor at a coffee shop). So you put it in your wallet, which means it's a 2-hand process to retrieve the card to unlock your car. You also have to remember to tap it to the car to lock as you walk away. 2. My wife's phone died on her once, so she had to pop in to a wine bar for a quick top-off. Of course most places happen to have iPhone chargers, but you can't count on them having all the phone power connenectors you might need; lightning, micro-usb, usb-c... etc. Particularly in the middle of nowhere. Yes, she could have called me or Tesla roadside... if her phone worked! Using the app I can remotely unlock the car for her, but i'm not sure how long this unlock 'lasts' for, and whether i need to do it again to enable the car to actually drive. Again, this is difficult to coordinate if she's a 5 minute walk away from the car (for instance). There are, however, benefits vs an RFID fob, and I'm massively in the latter camp. Having lived with it for a year, it feels like all upside and no downside. The obvious is that I don't need to carry a separate fob. Every time I walk up to the car, I just get in and go. No buttons. Nothing extra I need to carry. When I move our other cars around, I have to always remember (and usually go back inside) to retrieve keys. My wife and I share the car, and we commute together. We can easily swap seats; I get out at my dropoff location for work, she hops behind the wheel and drives off. No "who has the key" or "do you also have your keys, or do you need to borrow mine?" We frequently go for runs after work. You never have to think about having 2 sets of keys, or handing the keys to the next person to get back to the car. If I finish my run before her, or want to retrieve something from the car, I know I can just get in, no question. The car sits in the driveway. I don't even carry house keys. If I'm out for a walk, I pop the door, and press a button on the touchscreen and the garage door opens, and I walk into the house. It's just so insanely convenient and works so well. When people were complaining about Android functionality, there was a lot of talk about fobs. Then Tesla said they'd hand out free fobs to anyone who asked. I originally thought I'd want one, but I haven't even thought about asking for it.
zippergz 7y ago
I feel like the big disconnect here is that a lot of Tesla enthusiasts believe that the Tesla way (huge touchscreens, mobile phone unlock, etc.) are irrefutably better than the way other car makers do it. But my belief is that they're just DIFFERENT, which means that they will appeal to some people and not to others. I completely agree that someone who likes the Tesla way of doing things will have no interest in what is effectively today's BMW with an electric drivetrain. But on the other hand, someone who doesn't like the Tesla way of doing things (including me) would be absolutely thrilled to have an electric car option that is just like today's luxury German cars, except electric instead of ICE. I think (and hope) there's room for both in the market.
- d1zzy 7y ago
  Completely agreed with that. In fact, the VW e-Golf (once they get over 200 miles range or so, here's hoping) is likely going to be my first EV purchase, feels like a Golf, drives like a Golf, looks like a Golf and it's electric, win-win.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    I'm not sure VW will be continuing with the e-Golf. The VW ID.3, which will be released soon and has over 200 miles of range, looks like the e-Golf's replacement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c
  - rconti 7y ago
    From the folks that I know who have tried multiple options in the market, the Bolt is a much better choice than the eGolf. I've never driven an eGolf, though, but I owned an Mk7 Golf R and absolutely loved it, love the golf platform, was happy with VW.

by rconti 7y ago

rootusrootus 7y ago

I can't understand why anyone would think unlocking with a smartphone up to the doorhandle is an improvement. Plenty of cars have had proximity authentication and touchless door unlocking for years. Granted, with a fob rather than a phone, but I'm not sure I see that as a negative.

rconti 7y ago
It's definitely not. And I think the BMW ad is just a ham-fisted PR firm trying to find a visual way of conveying that you don't need a physical keyfob. I assume it works the same way Tesla's system does, but I don't know that for a fact. Wait, actually you apparently need a Samsung phone? It uses NFC? Okay, it's worse than the Tesla system. https://mashable.com/2018/02/26/bmw-digital-key-smartphones/ https://mashable.com/2018/02/26/bmw-digital-key-smartphones/
- rconti 7y ago
  Actually, the more I read about it, the more annoyed I get, and the more it proves my original point. There are valid critiques of Tesla forcing people to use bluetooth phone key functionality; especially when the Model 3 was new, it was pretty much a dumpster fire on Android; I assume this must have improved. But it works flawlessly on iOS (1 year and 18k miles later), and BMW's implementation is just so janky and horrible. Sorry for the ugly PDF link. You need a Samsung phone You need to pair the car with some app You have to buy Comfort Access on your car You have to pay $100 after your first year to use it You have to hold the phone or keycard up to the door handle. The one advantage it has over the bluetooth system is it apparently works with a dead battery on your phone. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=22&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjp0-CAk4jkAhViFjQIHQRgCiYQFjAVegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmwusa.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbmwusa%2Fconnected-drive%2Fpdf%2FGSG_DigitalKey.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2AicXaW9jRZKFJiXEnO84T https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    Yeah that does not sound terribly convenient. Trying to solve a problem that does not really seem to exist, probably because they feel like they need to keep up with Tesla in some way. I love new technology, but as someone who has to carry around a couple keys anyway, having a small fob on my keyring is not much of a burden, and the door unlocks when I touch it (provided the fob is on my person). Push button to start, never touch the fob, so using the phone the way BMW has it set up would be a step backwards in functionality. And of course they want $100. This is the same company that charges for Apple CarPlay. Sigh. I want to like BMW, but their recent history has been disappointing in many ways.
    - rconti 7y ago
      Yup. I bought a Golf R in 2015, after BMW brought the 3 series wagon (f31) to the US without a manual transmission for the first time. Honestly, a top-end Golf is nicer than the lower-end BMWs. The Golf had the fob-based touchless/keyless entry like BMW, and it worked flawlessly. Really loved it. (I now have a 2011 X5 with the same type system).
  - slovette 7y ago
    It’s like that because it’s not BMW developing the tech and it’s likely not BMW collecting the recurring revenue. Mass market cars now-a-days are a Frankenstein of niche hardware and software firms stitching together an end product. This is one of the things Tesla has a hidden edge on. From my understanding, it’s all in-house. It does mean there’s two much going on at Tesla at once, which is why the short comings on quality I think. But it also means the only gap from now to domination for them is time. I LOVE BMW btw, owned several. But I’m not blind to the fact that most of the car isn’t BMW at all. And all those firms are trying to squeeze margins by reducing development time.

persistent 7y ago

I think this is what the other poster was getting at: for some reason Tesla boosters think other people are copying the design of their keyless entry system, but even a base-model Honda Civic comes with keyless, touchless entry with walk-away automatic locking. This has not been a premium feature, or even a novelty, for years.

rconti 7y ago
I'm not talking about keyless entry which still requires you to carry a keyfob, and it should be clear given that I indicated that I own the cars in question. I'm talking about (bluetooth proximity) phone key, which apparently still is a novelty, because, as far as I know, Tesla was the first to have it, and BMW is advertising a similar system, although I don't know how it works. Their ads make it look vastly inferior, but presumably, they haven't designed a system where you have to take your phone out of your pocket and hold it up to the door handle, as this would be a step BACKWARDS from BMW's existing Comfort Access system, which uses RFID in the keyfob, and unlocks the car when you put your hand through the doorcup.
- persistent 7y ago
  Honestly curious why anyone would prefer a bluetooth system over an RF fob, especially an RF fob with physical key backup like Honda provides. Having to have a working and charged iPhone every time you want to open or close your car seems like a fundamentally terrible idea.
  - rconti 7y ago
    There was a lot of critique about this on the Tesla forums when the car first came out. I think this is a legitimate criticism. Particularly with Android phones having such difficulty; many people had to resort to toggling bluetooth on and off as they approached the car to make it work. This was never an issue with iOS, but there's obviously a huge potential for an issue (buggy software update with unintended consequences, either on the iOS/Android or Tesla side). Our issues were limited to 2 instances: 1. When the car was delivered, it took them about a week to add the car to our Tesla/app account (which is the only way you can pair the car to the phone's bluetooth; once it's paired there is no app required), which meant we had to use the backup RFID keycards, which is more of a pain than it sounds like. Yes, you COULD carry it like a fob, but it's light and thin and could much more easily get lost (on day 1 I dropped it out of my running shorts onto the floor at a coffee shop). So you put it in your wallet, which means it's a 2-hand process to retrieve the card to unlock your car. You also have to remember to tap it to the car to lock as you walk away. 2. My wife's phone died on her once, so she had to pop in to a wine bar for a quick top-off. Of course most places happen to have iPhone chargers, but you can't count on them having all the phone power connenectors you might need; lightning, micro-usb, usb-c... etc. Particularly in the middle of nowhere. Yes, she could have called me or Tesla roadside... if her phone worked! Using the app I can remotely unlock the car for her, but i'm not sure how long this unlock 'lasts' for, and whether i need to do it again to enable the car to actually drive. Again, this is difficult to coordinate if she's a 5 minute walk away from the car (for instance). There are, however, benefits vs an RFID fob, and I'm massively in the latter camp. Having lived with it for a year, it feels like all upside and no downside. The obvious is that I don't need to carry a separate fob. Every time I walk up to the car, I just get in and go. No buttons. Nothing extra I need to carry. When I move our other cars around, I have to always remember (and usually go back inside) to retrieve keys. My wife and I share the car, and we commute together. We can easily swap seats; I get out at my dropoff location for work, she hops behind the wheel and drives off. No "who has the key" or "do you also have your keys, or do you need to borrow mine?" We frequently go for runs after work. You never have to think about having 2 sets of keys, or handing the keys to the next person to get back to the car. If I finish my run before her, or want to retrieve something from the car, I know I can just get in, no question. The car sits in the driveway. I don't even carry house keys. If I'm out for a walk, I pop the door, and press a button on the touchscreen and the garage door opens, and I walk into the house. It's just so insanely convenient and works so well. When people were complaining about Android functionality, there was a lot of talk about fobs. Then Tesla said they'd hand out free fobs to anyone who asked. I originally thought I'd want one, but I haven't even thought about asking for it.

zippergz 7y ago

I feel like the big disconnect here is that a lot of Tesla enthusiasts believe that the Tesla way (huge touchscreens, mobile phone unlock, etc.) are irrefutably better than the way other car makers do it. But my belief is that they're just DIFFERENT, which means that they will appeal to some people and not to others. I completely agree that someone who likes the Tesla way of doing things will have no interest in what is effectively today's BMW with an electric drivetrain. But on the other hand, someone who doesn't like the Tesla way of doing things (including me) would be absolutely thrilled to have an electric car option that is just like today's luxury German cars, except electric instead of ICE. I think (and hope) there's room for both in the market.

d1zzy 7y ago
Completely agreed with that. In fact, the VW e-Golf (once they get over 200 miles range or so, here's hoping) is likely going to be my first EV purchase, feels like a Golf, drives like a Golf, looks like a Golf and it's electric, win-win.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  I'm not sure VW will be continuing with the e-Golf. The VW ID.3, which will be released soon and has over 200 miles of range, looks like the e-Golf's replacement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c
- rconti 7y ago
  From the folks that I know who have tried multiple options in the market, the Bolt is a much better choice than the eGolf. I've never driven an eGolf, though, but I owned an Mk7 Golf R and absolutely loved it, love the golf platform, was happy with VW.