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Given that marijuana arrests disproportionally target people of color, have you considered the ethical implications of bringing your product to market? The accu

Given that marijuana arrests disproportionally target people of color, have you considered the ethical implications of bringing your product to market? The accuracy of your device doesn't affect how or on whom it will be used.

core-questions 7y ago
Is it that they disproportionately target PoC, or are they simply smoking and driving more often and getting caught for it? Do we really expect every single crime statistic to show a completely perfect, proportionate representation of the host population's ethnic makeup?
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  PoC are disproportionately pulled over by police. EDIT: And that means you'll never get accurate numbers on consumption/offense rates. So using those numbers is fully questionable.
  - core-questions 7y ago
    How do you know it's disproportionate? What if they're actually speeding / breaking traffic laws / driving unmaintained vehicles more often?
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- sv123 7y ago
  No, it is definitely that they disproportionately target PoC.
Noah_SannTek 7y ago
We absolutely consider ethical implications for bringing this product to market. We currently live in a world where it's a "free-for-all", and officers establish reasonable suspicion, which leads to an arrest, without any objective evidence. We hypothesize that this is part of the reason why there's a higher number of PoC arrested. This doesn't happen with alcohol, because there is an objective device.
- slg 7y ago
  I'm sorry, but this is just not true. People are innocent until proven guilty. If there is no evidence, then they aren't convicted (EDIT: for the record, testimony is evidence). Adding an avenue to collect more evidence is going to cause more people to be convicted. Sure, you will probably get some people exonerated, but there is no question that you will get a larger number of people convicted. I am not going to weigh in on the ethics of that, but you should at least be honest about the repercussions of your work.
  - Noah_SannTek 7y ago
    Apologies, one thing I forgot to mention is that once reasonable suspicion is established, and an arrest happens, if you aren't blowing over 0.08 for alcohol, police will request a blood test. It's possible that for frequent users, THC will show up in these blood tests even though they haven't recently smoked. If an officer screens you on our device (which only has a 3 hour window of detection) and there is no THC, they have no further reason to request a blood test. Thoughts?
    - slg 7y ago
      >It's possible that for frequent users, THC will show up in these blood tests even though they haven't recently smoked That leaves reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt favors the accused. If your device removes reasonable doubt, it does not benefit the accused.
      - aianus 7y ago
        The device adds reasonable doubt over the status quo in the case where a blood test shows positive for THC and the device shows negative.
    - verall 7y ago
      (American viewpoint about this device being potentially used in America. Courts and policing is different in Canada, and so my feelings here aren't neccesarily how it would work out there) In many (most?) states you can refuse the blood test, until they get a warrant, even though you cannot refuse the Breathalyzer. I believe this will be used as a tool to make arrests and generate probable cause which will then immediately be used to obtain a warrant and blood test, which will hold up in court much better than the Breathalyzer alone or nothing at all. I'm sorry, but even if this product works perfect technically I see it harming more people than it helps. Throw in chance of false positives and likely hood it is used by biased individuals in a biased way (only some individuals are told to blow multiple times, etc) and I really believe this product deployed in America would have a negative impact on most people.
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core-questions 7y ago

Is it that they disproportionately target PoC, or are they simply smoking and driving more often and getting caught for it? Do we really expect every single crime statistic to show a completely perfect, proportionate representation of the host population's ethnic makeup?

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
PoC are disproportionately pulled over by police. EDIT: And that means you'll never get accurate numbers on consumption/offense rates. So using those numbers is fully questionable.
- core-questions 7y ago
  How do you know it's disproportionate? What if they're actually speeding / breaking traffic laws / driving unmaintained vehicles more often?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
sv123 7y ago
No, it is definitely that they disproportionately target PoC.

Noah_SannTek 7y ago

We absolutely consider ethical implications for bringing this product to market. We currently live in a world where it's a "free-for-all", and officers establish reasonable suspicion, which leads to an arrest, without any objective evidence. We hypothesize that this is part of the reason why there's a higher number of PoC arrested. This doesn't happen with alcohol, because there is an objective device.

slg 7y ago
I'm sorry, but this is just not true. People are innocent until proven guilty. If there is no evidence, then they aren't convicted (EDIT: for the record, testimony is evidence). Adding an avenue to collect more evidence is going to cause more people to be convicted. Sure, you will probably get some people exonerated, but there is no question that you will get a larger number of people convicted. I am not going to weigh in on the ethics of that, but you should at least be honest about the repercussions of your work.
- Noah_SannTek 7y ago
  Apologies, one thing I forgot to mention is that once reasonable suspicion is established, and an arrest happens, if you aren't blowing over 0.08 for alcohol, police will request a blood test. It's possible that for frequent users, THC will show up in these blood tests even though they haven't recently smoked. If an officer screens you on our device (which only has a 3 hour window of detection) and there is no THC, they have no further reason to request a blood test. Thoughts?
  - slg 7y ago
    >It's possible that for frequent users, THC will show up in these blood tests even though they haven't recently smoked That leaves reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt favors the accused. If your device removes reasonable doubt, it does not benefit the accused.
    - aianus 7y ago
      The device adds reasonable doubt over the status quo in the case where a blood test shows positive for THC and the device shows negative.
  - verall 7y ago
    (American viewpoint about this device being potentially used in America. Courts and policing is different in Canada, and so my feelings here aren't neccesarily how it would work out there) In many (most?) states you can refuse the blood test, until they get a warrant, even though you cannot refuse the Breathalyzer. I believe this will be used as a tool to make arrests and generate probable cause which will then immediately be used to obtain a warrant and blood test, which will hold up in court much better than the Breathalyzer alone or nothing at all. I'm sorry, but even if this product works perfect technically I see it harming more people than it helps. Throw in chance of false positives and likely hood it is used by biased individuals in a biased way (only some individuals are told to blow multiple times, etc) and I really believe this product deployed in America would have a negative impact on most people.

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