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Considering how advanced GOOG is at ML, instead of blocking they should just filter out the music instead. You don't even need ML for this if you have the origi

Considering how advanced GOOG is at ML, instead of blocking they should just filter out the music instead. You don't even need ML for this if you have the original music piece. This way they can insert themselves as a middleman and act as a marketplace. If the video creator wants to pay for music and music companies wants to profit from it, they can go through Google directly. The two parties don't ever have to even meet each other or know who each other is.

chrisseaton 7y ago
GOOG?
- krastanov 7y ago
  This is Hacker News's fashionable way to refer to companies: not by their actual name but by their NASDAQ ticker name.
  - toxican 7y ago
    Seems pretentious as hell, to be honest.
    - derefr 7y ago
      It's what business newspapers do, especially online, as the name serves as a microformat causing the newspaper's CMS to automatically inject ticker information either on-hover or as an embedded aside.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        Some ticker names have no relation to the company name though! You often have to go and look them up.
        smallbigfish 7y ago
        Cloudfare has 'NET' IIRC. Funny!
  - owlninja 7y ago
    I'll have to admit I was also very confused by the use of 'FANG' so often around here.
    - moate 7y ago
      FANG (or FAANG) isn't a ticker symbol though, just industry jargon.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        FANG is the ticker symbol of Diamondback Energy, a Midland, Texas oil company. https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/FANG/overview https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/FANG/overview
        moate 7y ago
        I understand that it is a ticker symbol, but nobody on Hacker News means Diamondback Engegy when they say "FANG" "FAANG" or "FANG/FAANG Companies". But great point though.
    - xeroaura 7y ago
      FANG at least makes more sense since the abbreviation is a lot faster than typing out the multiple company names. Ambivalent about stock tickers. Sometimes have to look them up, haha.
otakucode 7y ago
The problem is, in the USA at least, there is a legal right to Fair Use of copyrighted works. Analysis of Fair Use issues is not simple and is impossible to automate. Music companies have been consistently breaking the law with their claims. The law requires them to do a proper Fair Use analysis prior to lodging any complaint under the DMCA. While it might be possible for Google to automate removal of a given scrap of music from a video, and providing that as an option to the music companies as an alternative to blocking the entire video or disabling monetization might be a good idea, it leaves a few problems on the table. Music companies would still be legally obligated to perform proper Fair Use analysis on every single video they do this to. Additionally, there is no such thing as a central copyright registry that Google could use to verify that the people filing the claims have any right. Googles systems can be, and actively are, abused. It's the sort of situation that I imagine Google really dislikes, as the law in this area is basically impossible to automate. So, they will probably just automate destruction of Fair Use because the groups most likely impacted have fewer resources to fight it.
- judge2020 7y ago
  As noted elsewhere, the Content ID system is only there to make sure DMCA and Fair Use doesn't have to get involved since the only way to legally assert your use of a piece is Fair Use is to go to court, which is costly for YouTube if they're pulled into the case.
- wormseed 7y ago
  > The law requires them to do a proper Fair Use analysis prior to lodging any complaint under the DMCA. No it doesn't
  - nkurz 7y ago
    What makes you so confident? I think the current belief, as decided in Lenz was that the law requires copyright holders to consider fair use before filing a takedown notice: "The panel held that the DCMA requires copyright holders to consider fair use before sending a takedown notification, and that failure to do so raises a triable issue as to whether the copyright holder formed a subjective good faith belief that the use was not authorized by law." https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/13-16106/13-16106-2015-09-14.html https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/13... Have I missed some precedent that overturns this?
crazygringo 7y ago
You very much do need ML for that, because the EQ distribution of the music in a video is going to be completely different from the original, and both volume and EQ distribution will vary even within fractions of a second as the sonic environment changes as objects move. The only time it's closer to trivial to filter out is when the music has been edited in as an audio track, and no additional filters/EQ have been applied. But even then, subtracting a lossless original will leave funky-sounding audio compression artifacts, a "ghost" of the song left behind.
- derefr 7y ago
  > But even then, subtracting a lossless original will leave funky-sounding audio compression artifacts, a "ghost" of the song left behind. But 1. that's not YouTube's problem, and 2. most content-creators would prefer a segment of weird artefacted audio to their video being demonetized.
Felk 7y ago
Youtube already offers the option to either just mute the relevant section, or remove the music only. It's marked as beta and doesn't always work, but it's there.
Paul-ish 7y ago
Google is working on this. Look at section "Mute song only (beta)" https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en
nickjj 7y ago
I'm not sure if ML can solve this problem in a decent way. For example, let's say most of your voice falls within a range of 120hz to 160hz and there is a guitar playing in the background at various frequencies where a majority of it happens to match your voice's frequency. Now your goal is to cut out the guitar, leaving a pristine copy of your voice. How would ML or any strategy be able to differentiate a voice or guitar at 140hz? I deal with a similar problem when recording my voice for video courses in a non-treated room. I have to set up a noise gate to lower the volume of certain frequencies (background computer fans, etc.) until you can't hear them. They tend to give off a low frequency compared to a human voice, but the more loud the fan is relative to my voice requires setting the noise gate to a higher frequency. If you try to filter too much, then your voice gets cut off for those frequencies and it sounds horrible. It either cuts out entirely or you sound super dirty and metallic since your wave forms are all jaggy instead of smooth lines. I'm no ML expert but I think this problem would be insanely hard to solve in a way that's high quality. You can bend your voice's frequencies and the frequency of various instruments in a similar way. Then on top of that, there's going to be situations where the singer's voice is going to happen while you're talking. That'll be even harder to separate if you criss-cross frequencies. And on top of that, you might have 2-3 guitars, drums, keyboard, a singer and your voice all hitting the same frequencies. So much overlap! I'd love to hear the quality of a tool that claims it can remove only the songs out of any audio footage that may include your voice, background voices of other people talking as well as other ambient sound (water falling, people shuffling around, cars honking, etc.). If I were watching someone's vlog I would want to hear the atmosphere of the place. Making it completely mute except for their voice would be extremely weird and unsettling (and still crazy complicated to do I bet).
- davinic 7y ago
  Most productions use a recording of "room tone" to create a noise print, which is subtracted from the recorded audio to reduce noise. Software such as Adobe Audition have this built in. A known song could be used as a time-series with a similar effect.
  - nickjj 7y ago
    > Most productions use a recording of "room tone" to create a noise print, which is subtracted from the recorded audio to reduce noise. Software such as Adobe Audition have this built in. Yes, this is what I used to do with REAPER (a digital audio workstation tool). It was even able to do this in soft real time (that's how I recorded my more recent courses) with only 10ms of delay. But from my understanding it does this by dampening or removing (depending on how aggressive you have it configured) the frequencies of your room or whatever sound you're trying to remove. A relatively low volume fan hum is pretty easy to remove without distorting the target audio, but if the frequencies start to overlap with varying degrees of volume the whole thing becomes a jumbled mess. To put this into perspective, the video at the top of https://diveintodocker.com/ https://diveintodocker.com/ used REAPER's noise reduction plugin to remove a pretty loud tower and power supply fan. Even with studio grade headphones at max volume you probably won't notice a hint of hissing or white noise when I'm not speaking, but if you have a trained ear there's a subtle clamping down on the lower end of my voice's range. 99.9999% of people won't notice it, but this is also a best case scenario for removing frequencies (a constant low hum at relatively low volume) that rarely interweaves with my voice's frequency. The whole game changes with multiple instruments and volumes that cut across your range.

chrisseaton 7y ago

GOOG?

krastanov 7y ago
This is Hacker News's fashionable way to refer to companies: not by their actual name but by their NASDAQ ticker name.
- toxican 7y ago
  Seems pretentious as hell, to be honest.
  - derefr 7y ago
    It's what business newspapers do, especially online, as the name serves as a microformat causing the newspaper's CMS to automatically inject ticker information either on-hover or as an embedded aside.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      Some ticker names have no relation to the company name though! You often have to go and look them up.
      - smallbigfish 7y ago
        Cloudfare has 'NET' IIRC. Funny!
- owlninja 7y ago
  I'll have to admit I was also very confused by the use of 'FANG' so often around here.
  - moate 7y ago
    FANG (or FAANG) isn't a ticker symbol though, just industry jargon.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      FANG is the ticker symbol of Diamondback Energy, a Midland, Texas oil company. https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/FANG/overview https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/FANG/overview
      - moate 7y ago
        I understand that it is a ticker symbol, but nobody on Hacker News means Diamondback Engegy when they say "FANG" "FAANG" or "FANG/FAANG Companies". But great point though.
  - xeroaura 7y ago
    FANG at least makes more sense since the abbreviation is a lot faster than typing out the multiple company names. Ambivalent about stock tickers. Sometimes have to look them up, haha.

otakucode 7y ago

The problem is, in the USA at least, there is a legal right to Fair Use of copyrighted works. Analysis of Fair Use issues is not simple and is impossible to automate. Music companies have been consistently breaking the law with their claims. The law requires them to do a proper Fair Use analysis prior to lodging any complaint under the DMCA. While it might be possible for Google to automate removal of a given scrap of music from a video, and providing that as an option to the music companies as an alternative to blocking the entire video or disabling monetization might be a good idea, it leaves a few problems on the table. Music companies would still be legally obligated to perform proper Fair Use analysis on every single video they do this to. Additionally, there is no such thing as a central copyright registry that Google could use to verify that the people filing the claims have any right. Googles systems can be, and actively are, abused. It's the sort of situation that I imagine Google really dislikes, as the law in this area is basically impossible to automate. So, they will probably just automate destruction of Fair Use because the groups most likely impacted have fewer resources to fight it.

judge2020 7y ago
As noted elsewhere, the Content ID system is only there to make sure DMCA and Fair Use doesn't have to get involved since the only way to legally assert your use of a piece is Fair Use is to go to court, which is costly for YouTube if they're pulled into the case.
wormseed 7y ago
> The law requires them to do a proper Fair Use analysis prior to lodging any complaint under the DMCA. No it doesn't
- nkurz 7y ago
  What makes you so confident? I think the current belief, as decided in Lenz was that the law requires copyright holders to consider fair use before filing a takedown notice: "The panel held that the DCMA requires copyright holders to consider fair use before sending a takedown notification, and that failure to do so raises a triable issue as to whether the copyright holder formed a subjective good faith belief that the use was not authorized by law." https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/13-16106/13-16106-2015-09-14.html https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/13... Have I missed some precedent that overturns this?

crazygringo 7y ago

You very much do need ML for that, because the EQ distribution of the music in a video is going to be completely different from the original, and both volume and EQ distribution will vary even within fractions of a second as the sonic environment changes as objects move. The only time it's closer to trivial to filter out is when the music has been edited in as an audio track, and no additional filters/EQ have been applied. But even then, subtracting a lossless original will leave funky-sounding audio compression artifacts, a "ghost" of the song left behind.

derefr 7y ago
> But even then, subtracting a lossless original will leave funky-sounding audio compression artifacts, a "ghost" of the song left behind. But 1. that's not YouTube's problem, and 2. most content-creators would prefer a segment of weird artefacted audio to their video being demonetized.

Felk 7y ago

Youtube already offers the option to either just mute the relevant section, or remove the music only. It's marked as beta and doesn't always work, but it's there.

Paul-ish 7y ago

Google is working on this. Look at section "Mute song only (beta)" https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2902117?hl=en

nickjj 7y ago

I'm not sure if ML can solve this problem in a decent way. For example, let's say most of your voice falls within a range of 120hz to 160hz and there is a guitar playing in the background at various frequencies where a majority of it happens to match your voice's frequency. Now your goal is to cut out the guitar, leaving a pristine copy of your voice. How would ML or any strategy be able to differentiate a voice or guitar at 140hz? I deal with a similar problem when recording my voice for video courses in a non-treated room. I have to set up a noise gate to lower the volume of certain frequencies (background computer fans, etc.) until you can't hear them. They tend to give off a low frequency compared to a human voice, but the more loud the fan is relative to my voice requires setting the noise gate to a higher frequency. If you try to filter too much, then your voice gets cut off for those frequencies and it sounds horrible. It either cuts out entirely or you sound super dirty and metallic since your wave forms are all jaggy instead of smooth lines. I'm no ML expert but I think this problem would be insanely hard to solve in a way that's high quality. You can bend your voice's frequencies and the frequency of various instruments in a similar way. Then on top of that, there's going to be situations where the singer's voice is going to happen while you're talking. That'll be even harder to separate if you criss-cross frequencies. And on top of that, you might have 2-3 guitars, drums, keyboard, a singer and your voice all hitting the same frequencies. So much overlap! I'd love to hear the quality of a tool that claims it can remove only the songs out of any audio footage that may include your voice, background voices of other people talking as well as other ambient sound (water falling, people shuffling around, cars honking, etc.). If I were watching someone's vlog I would want to hear the atmosphere of the place. Making it completely mute except for their voice would be extremely weird and unsettling (and still crazy complicated to do I bet).

davinic 7y ago
Most productions use a recording of "room tone" to create a noise print, which is subtracted from the recorded audio to reduce noise. Software such as Adobe Audition have this built in. A known song could be used as a time-series with a similar effect.
- nickjj 7y ago
  > Most productions use a recording of "room tone" to create a noise print, which is subtracted from the recorded audio to reduce noise. Software such as Adobe Audition have this built in. Yes, this is what I used to do with REAPER (a digital audio workstation tool). It was even able to do this in soft real time (that's how I recorded my more recent courses) with only 10ms of delay. But from my understanding it does this by dampening or removing (depending on how aggressive you have it configured) the frequencies of your room or whatever sound you're trying to remove. A relatively low volume fan hum is pretty easy to remove without distorting the target audio, but if the frequencies start to overlap with varying degrees of volume the whole thing becomes a jumbled mess. To put this into perspective, the video at the top of https://diveintodocker.com/ https://diveintodocker.com/ used REAPER's noise reduction plugin to remove a pretty loud tower and power supply fan. Even with studio grade headphones at max volume you probably won't notice a hint of hissing or white noise when I'm not speaking, but if you have a trained ear there's a subtle clamping down on the lower end of my voice's range. 99.9999% of people won't notice it, but this is also a best case scenario for removing frequencies (a constant low hum at relatively low volume) that rarely interweaves with my voice's frequency. The whole game changes with multiple instruments and volumes that cut across your range.