8 ms·

I do notice a pattern of misunderstanding that I've also observed when talking with Android users IRL. iMessage is very different from Whatsapp. For starters,

I do notice a pattern of misunderstanding that I've also observed when talking with Android users IRL. iMessage is very different from Whatsapp. For starters, there is no dedicated iMessage app. iMessage is managed from the iOS Messages app, which handles both iMessage and SMS. It's very good at managing both from one unified interface. In fact, it's so good that it uses arbitrary coloring of messages so you can see what message was sent through iMessage and what message was sent through SMS, because you would often not be able to tell otherwise as it's all in the same interface. A lot of caveats apply here, but broadly speaking, while an iMessage user is typing a message, Messages will contact Apple to check if the recipient is also an iMessage user. If yes, it will try to send the message through iMessage and color the text bubble blue. If no, it will go through SMS and the bubble gets a green color. If iMessage fails in the first scenario, Messages will offer to revert to SMS. So unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't care if the recipient has iMessage or not. And it also does not care if the recipient has an iPhone or not. It will get the message over regardless, as long as the recipient can receive SMS, which any Android phone can. Whatsapp, OTOH, does put the onus on the recipient to have the app. In other words: when it comes to the recipient, Messages (the app) is actually a lot more inclusive than Whatsapp (the app). These HS teens aren't locking others out because they can't text their Android friends. They perfectly can, as OP from the Twitter thread also acknowledges, from the same app that they use to text their iPhone friends. They lock them out because Messages colors the bubbles green, which has become a social stigma in our high schools. Nothing more, nothing less. So it is not a technical limitation, and neither is it a cost issue, as virtually all wireless plans include unlimited (SMS) texts in the US. It is purely a human factors issue, which teens of all times and generations have been very prone to. As sad as it is.

n8henry 7y ago
They are locking their Android friends out of group messages, which are very popular among that age group.
- Bellyache5 7y ago
  Based on that Twitter thread, they are starting new group messages that don't include their Android friends and abandoning the original group message.
- asclepi 7y ago
  The same applies. Messages can perfectly handle group messages that include a mix of iOS and Android users. Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out.
  - tkxxx7 7y ago
    > But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out. You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. It really is because the experience sucks over SMS. The annoyance with the green color is just a symbol of that frustration. I implore you, to try having a meaningful group chat with a mix of users. Having just one Android user instantly degrades the experience for everyone involved. > Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. Messages isn't the problem. Group SMS is. You are forced into transitioning out of a group chat model, to a broadcast SMS one. All the usual issues apply - increased delays/out of order messages, no read receipts, Android phones randomly creating multiple smaller groups or just shitting out completely.. Any semblance of real-time destroyed.
    - asclepi 7y ago
      > You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. I'm not. That is what the Twitter OP indicated as the actual reason. He was left out "specifically because he was on Android and turned the thread green" (sic). Or in the student's own words: "we would start a new group chat, and the group would realize I was the reason it was green, and they would start another group chat without me". Nowhere is mentioned that the degraded experience is the reason. It could be that that the SMS experience is the reason when it comes to adults who are mature enough to leave the green/blue behind them but have a lot less tolerance for poor UX. But for teens - which is what this thread is about - I fully agree with OP's conclusion that the social stigma surrounding the color is the primary reason.
azinman2 7y ago
Sorry, but group chat over SMS is crap. Lots of Android phones as well don’t operate group SMS well, you get reduced resolution in photos and videos, can’t like/heart messages in the same way, no typing indicators, etc etc. Losing iMessage features sucks when you’re otherwise used to it.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  >no typing indicators That is a feature. Also no "seen" privacy violators.
  - NobodyNada 7y ago
    Read receipts are disabled by default IIRC. In the rare cases where I'm drafting a message long enough to worry about the typing indicator, it's usually easier anyway to compose it in a text editor/notes app and copy/paste when I'm ready to send.
  - RickS 7y ago
    Agreed on the "typing" thing being somewhat invasive. I'm not sure that can be turned off... In iMessage, the "seen" notis (read receipts) are set on the reader side. They're totally customizable and can be globally disabled. I have them on personally, because I find that it encourages good reply etiquette on my part, but they're easy to turn off in a granular way. chat-by-chat, whenever you want. I'm not sure how this works for IG, others. I believe in whatsapp you can turn them off at the expense of losing that info for everyone else, but I'm not 100% on that. The feature is extraordinarily useful in group chats. If you're trying to change venues while coordinating a group activity with people that haven't arrived, you get a realtime picture of who has up-to-date information and who doesn't. Makes a big difference.
- NobodyNada 7y ago
  MMS is also extremely unreliable compared to iMessage (as I mentioned in another comment thread). Messages are often delayed by upwards of 15 minutes, and I can't send or receive at all if I'm somewhere with less-than-perfect cell coverage (including my home and work). Additionally, some cellular plans can't receive MMS at all, and I've seen some Android phones unable to receive messages sent to a group larger than 8 or 10 participants.
nerdjon 7y ago
Except there is more to it than just the green bubbles. - Reactions to messages - Any applications in group chats - Encrypted - Seen and typing indicators The biggest single thing that I actually care about. There is a nice button "Leave this Conversation" I can click on an iMessage group chat, and it leaves the conversation.
nocsi 7y ago
Nobody ever mentions the security aspect. The group that would be otherwise e2e encrypted if SMS people aren't involved. Green-texting the entire group chat removes that, so it goes beyond just some visual inconvenience. But more likely, they're locking them out because SMS users cause media in group chat to be down-converted - it's a user-experience factor.
anoncareer0212 7y ago
There isn't a misunderstanding – this is classic embrace and extend 90s Microsoft. iMessage is ActiveX, not a gift from a benevolent dictator, especially not a gift to the world
txcwpalpha 7y ago
I think you're drastically misunderstanding the issue here. Everyone knows how Messages works in regards to the switchoff between iMessage and SMS. It's not like it's some secret that the Messages app is capable of also sending SMS. The problem is that it's also not a secret that SMS is objectively a worse experience than iMessage, especially for group chats. Why do you think the kids don't like it when a thread is green? Do you think that the kids just don't like the color green? That's not it. They don't like it because the thread being green is an indicator that nearly everything about the group chat experience is going to be worse. Messages will be drastically slower, they will have a higher failure rate, pics/videos sent over that chat will be lower quality, there will be no typing indicators or read receipts, there is no ability to label the chat, likes and other message indicators are more cluttering, etc. It isn't just high school kids, either. I've seen people at work intentionally exclude android users on group chats because we needed fast responses from people and the 2-3 second delay each way on MMS (and that's best case. sometimes it can take minutes for a single message to go through, if it goes through at all) is intolerable when you're trying to have a fast paced conversation with many people. I've had my friend group (people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s) intentionally exclude android users because they were tired of always worrying if one of their MMSes wasn't actually received by everyone in the group (in groups with android users, MMS failures happened enough to have multiple ruined plans because some people in the group never got all the messages being sent). This is not just a human problem. These people aren't excluding Android users just because they think blue is a cool color and they want to bully green people. They're doing it because there is a very clear technical issue with SMS where it is very lacking in features compared to iMessage. The colors just happen to be a very easy way to signal whether or not you will be using the superior iMessage or the inferior SMS/MMS.
- sixbrx 7y ago
  Regarding the work-related messaging, sounds like neither iMessage nor SMS is suitable for the job, and one of the many cross platform full featured messaging apps should be used instead.

n8henry 7y ago

They are locking their Android friends out of group messages, which are very popular among that age group.

Bellyache5 7y ago
Based on that Twitter thread, they are starting new group messages that don't include their Android friends and abandoning the original group message.
asclepi 7y ago
The same applies. Messages can perfectly handle group messages that include a mix of iOS and Android users. Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out.
- tkxxx7 7y ago
  > But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out. You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. It really is because the experience sucks over SMS. The annoyance with the green color is just a symbol of that frustration. I implore you, to try having a meaningful group chat with a mix of users. Having just one Android user instantly degrades the experience for everyone involved. > Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. Messages isn't the problem. Group SMS is. You are forced into transitioning out of a group chat model, to a broadcast SMS one. All the usual issues apply - increased delays/out of order messages, no read receipts, Android phones randomly creating multiple smaller groups or just shitting out completely.. Any semblance of real-time destroyed.
  - asclepi 7y ago
    > You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. I'm not. That is what the Twitter OP indicated as the actual reason. He was left out "specifically because he was on Android and turned the thread green" (sic). Or in the student's own words: "we would start a new group chat, and the group would realize I was the reason it was green, and they would start another group chat without me". Nowhere is mentioned that the degraded experience is the reason. It could be that that the SMS experience is the reason when it comes to adults who are mature enough to leave the green/blue behind them but have a lot less tolerance for poor UX. But for teens - which is what this thread is about - I fully agree with OP's conclusion that the social stigma surrounding the color is the primary reason.

azinman2 7y ago

Sorry, but group chat over SMS is crap. Lots of Android phones as well don’t operate group SMS well, you get reduced resolution in photos and videos, can’t like/heart messages in the same way, no typing indicators, etc etc. Losing iMessage features sucks when you’re otherwise used to it.

NullPrefix 7y ago
>no typing indicators That is a feature. Also no "seen" privacy violators.
- NobodyNada 7y ago
  Read receipts are disabled by default IIRC. In the rare cases where I'm drafting a message long enough to worry about the typing indicator, it's usually easier anyway to compose it in a text editor/notes app and copy/paste when I'm ready to send.
- RickS 7y ago
  Agreed on the "typing" thing being somewhat invasive. I'm not sure that can be turned off... In iMessage, the "seen" notis (read receipts) are set on the reader side. They're totally customizable and can be globally disabled. I have them on personally, because I find that it encourages good reply etiquette on my part, but they're easy to turn off in a granular way. chat-by-chat, whenever you want. I'm not sure how this works for IG, others. I believe in whatsapp you can turn them off at the expense of losing that info for everyone else, but I'm not 100% on that. The feature is extraordinarily useful in group chats. If you're trying to change venues while coordinating a group activity with people that haven't arrived, you get a realtime picture of who has up-to-date information and who doesn't. Makes a big difference.
NobodyNada 7y ago
MMS is also extremely unreliable compared to iMessage (as I mentioned in another comment thread). Messages are often delayed by upwards of 15 minutes, and I can't send or receive at all if I'm somewhere with less-than-perfect cell coverage (including my home and work). Additionally, some cellular plans can't receive MMS at all, and I've seen some Android phones unable to receive messages sent to a group larger than 8 or 10 participants.

nerdjon 7y ago

Except there is more to it than just the green bubbles. - Reactions to messages - Any applications in group chats - Encrypted - Seen and typing indicators The biggest single thing that I actually care about. There is a nice button "Leave this Conversation" I can click on an iMessage group chat, and it leaves the conversation.

nocsi 7y ago

Nobody ever mentions the security aspect. The group that would be otherwise e2e encrypted if SMS people aren't involved. Green-texting the entire group chat removes that, so it goes beyond just some visual inconvenience. But more likely, they're locking them out because SMS users cause media in group chat to be down-converted - it's a user-experience factor.

anoncareer0212 7y ago

There isn't a misunderstanding – this is classic embrace and extend 90s Microsoft. iMessage is ActiveX, not a gift from a benevolent dictator, especially not a gift to the world

txcwpalpha 7y ago

I think you're drastically misunderstanding the issue here. Everyone knows how Messages works in regards to the switchoff between iMessage and SMS. It's not like it's some secret that the Messages app is capable of also sending SMS. The problem is that it's also not a secret that SMS is objectively a worse experience than iMessage, especially for group chats. Why do you think the kids don't like it when a thread is green? Do you think that the kids just don't like the color green? That's not it. They don't like it because the thread being green is an indicator that nearly everything about the group chat experience is going to be worse. Messages will be drastically slower, they will have a higher failure rate, pics/videos sent over that chat will be lower quality, there will be no typing indicators or read receipts, there is no ability to label the chat, likes and other message indicators are more cluttering, etc. It isn't just high school kids, either. I've seen people at work intentionally exclude android users on group chats because we needed fast responses from people and the 2-3 second delay each way on MMS (and that's best case. sometimes it can take minutes for a single message to go through, if it goes through at all) is intolerable when you're trying to have a fast paced conversation with many people. I've had my friend group (people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s) intentionally exclude android users because they were tired of always worrying if one of their MMSes wasn't actually received by everyone in the group (in groups with android users, MMS failures happened enough to have multiple ruined plans because some people in the group never got all the messages being sent). This is not just a human problem. These people aren't excluding Android users just because they think blue is a cool color and they want to bully green people. They're doing it because there is a very clear technical issue with SMS where it is very lacking in features compared to iMessage. The colors just happen to be a very easy way to signal whether or not you will be using the superior iMessage or the inferior SMS/MMS.

sixbrx 7y ago
Regarding the work-related messaging, sounds like neither iMessage nor SMS is suitable for the job, and one of the many cross platform full featured messaging apps should be used instead.