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Imagine installing node.js and a json parser and 10+ other things just for a cowsay clone. I can't imagine what a clean install of all this crap would be just

by floor_ 7y ago

Imagine installing node.js and a json parser and 10+ other things just for a cowsay clone. I can't imagine what a clean install of all this crap would be just for this project.

Klathmon 7y ago
Can we not do this? It's just as valid to have this kind of little thing written in node as it is to have it written in Perl. One person's complaint about a json parser being too heavyweight is just as valid as the complaints that the arcane one-off cow template syntax is hard to use and understand. Not to mention that this has different features than cowsay, and it's just a fun little project. It parses image files into the terminal display, it can scrape 3rd party websites to download new Pokemon images.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  I think we should do this. When writing a tiny, trivial utility, it doesn't make sense to bring in a ton of dependencies. Disk space, memory usage, and download size all matter, especially to those of us who use old hardware on rural satellite connections. Your final paragraph had a good point, though. It's not just cowsay.
  - sansnomme 7y ago
    Developer time is valuable too, if you feel strongly about efficiency, feel free to write one in C++ or Rust. As an industry we have come to accept that developers are not cheap, that a multitude of open source libraries is good for everyone regardless of perceived deficiencies in quality, whether this is due to supply/demand is besides the point. The thing is, there are limits to "artisan, handcrafted software". If you want your GUI or app to look good, ship without license restrictions, build quickly, not resort to sweatshop labour, then you have to use stuff like Electron or Node.js. You can't have all of your cake and eat it too. Artisanal handcrafted software is nice to build when you have exited a startup or has a trust fund and nothing better to do with your time. (If you are a Lisp developer and you are reading this, I challenge you to build one in your favourite Lisp. Let's see how HN's favorite "secret weapon" fares against the entire ecosystem of JavaScript. The hypocrisy is unreal here, people would espouse Lisp in one breath and go back to coding their startup in Rails in another.)
  - jandeboevrie 7y ago
    I agree. Fat shaming for software. Otherwise you'll end up with a terminal emulator written with electron. Oh wait, that already exists. But seriously. If you don't tell people politely and explain what and why it's wrong, they'll never know that what they're doing could be better. Just ranting and shaming might not be the best way. Still I agree with all the NodeJS hate.
    - BFatts 7y ago
      What hate do you refer to, and why do you agree with it? What's wrong with having a rapid development ecosystem within which to build that is fairly simple to install, run, and cycle? JavaScript, and NodeJS by extension, are just as viable as languages as any other out there. There are languages, such as Rust or Go, that people tout their benefits. However, I see no simple way to get an env set up, learn the language, and turn around anything of meaning in the time I could in JavaScript. There are some deficiencies in the platform, surely, but those (as I would expect) get resolved over time. I could make the same argument about having to get a JRE or a Python interpreter. Each language is going to have its deficiencies and bonuses.
  - BFatts 7y ago
    The complaint about "bringing in Node" and all the other dependencies is silly. Developers familiar with Node will already have it on their system - notch. Then the dependencies are just part of the ecosystem since this stuff ain't compiled. So, pointing it out is just being pedantic - that's all.
    - JasonFruit 7y ago
      I'm baffled by this comment, as it seems to imply that cowsay and similar are developer tools.
- entelechy0 7y ago
  No, we can't not do this. This is the same problem I have with react

by floor_ 7y ago

Imagine installing node.js and a json parser and 10+ other things just for a cowsay clone. I can't imagine what a clean install of all this crap would be just for this project.

Klathmon 7y ago

Can we not do this? It's just as valid to have this kind of little thing written in node as it is to have it written in Perl. One person's complaint about a json parser being too heavyweight is just as valid as the complaints that the arcane one-off cow template syntax is hard to use and understand. Not to mention that this has different features than cowsay, and it's just a fun little project. It parses image files into the terminal display, it can scrape 3rd party websites to download new Pokemon images.

JasonFruit 7y ago
I think we should do this. When writing a tiny, trivial utility, it doesn't make sense to bring in a ton of dependencies. Disk space, memory usage, and download size all matter, especially to those of us who use old hardware on rural satellite connections. Your final paragraph had a good point, though. It's not just cowsay.
- sansnomme 7y ago
  Developer time is valuable too, if you feel strongly about efficiency, feel free to write one in C++ or Rust. As an industry we have come to accept that developers are not cheap, that a multitude of open source libraries is good for everyone regardless of perceived deficiencies in quality, whether this is due to supply/demand is besides the point. The thing is, there are limits to "artisan, handcrafted software". If you want your GUI or app to look good, ship without license restrictions, build quickly, not resort to sweatshop labour, then you have to use stuff like Electron or Node.js. You can't have all of your cake and eat it too. Artisanal handcrafted software is nice to build when you have exited a startup or has a trust fund and nothing better to do with your time. (If you are a Lisp developer and you are reading this, I challenge you to build one in your favourite Lisp. Let's see how HN's favorite "secret weapon" fares against the entire ecosystem of JavaScript. The hypocrisy is unreal here, people would espouse Lisp in one breath and go back to coding their startup in Rails in another.)
- jandeboevrie 7y ago
  I agree. Fat shaming for software. Otherwise you'll end up with a terminal emulator written with electron. Oh wait, that already exists. But seriously. If you don't tell people politely and explain what and why it's wrong, they'll never know that what they're doing could be better. Just ranting and shaming might not be the best way. Still I agree with all the NodeJS hate.
  - BFatts 7y ago
    What hate do you refer to, and why do you agree with it? What's wrong with having a rapid development ecosystem within which to build that is fairly simple to install, run, and cycle? JavaScript, and NodeJS by extension, are just as viable as languages as any other out there. There are languages, such as Rust or Go, that people tout their benefits. However, I see no simple way to get an env set up, learn the language, and turn around anything of meaning in the time I could in JavaScript. There are some deficiencies in the platform, surely, but those (as I would expect) get resolved over time. I could make the same argument about having to get a JRE or a Python interpreter. Each language is going to have its deficiencies and bonuses.
- BFatts 7y ago
  The complaint about "bringing in Node" and all the other dependencies is silly. Developers familiar with Node will already have it on their system - notch. Then the dependencies are just part of the ecosystem since this stuff ain't compiled. So, pointing it out is just being pedantic - that's all.
  - JasonFruit 7y ago
    I'm baffled by this comment, as it seems to imply that cowsay and similar are developer tools.
entelechy0 7y ago
No, we can't not do this. This is the same problem I have with react