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The protesters are not calling for independence. They have five specific demands, which boil down to "uphold the law as written", including the right (guarantee

The protesters are not calling for independence. They have five specific demands, which boil down to "uphold the law as written", including the right (guaranteed in the Basic Law) to elect their government.

loyukfai 7y ago
And the five demands are not treated equally among the people: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433&id=100004245636237&ref=bookmarks https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433... Some of the core protesters (I don't have any objective figure) consider them a take it or leave it deal though.
smallnamespace 7y ago
Right, because they are smart about what sells, both to the international community and to China. But let's not kid ourselves that wants === demands
- roboys 7y ago
  > They are smart about what sells Alternatively, they are being influenced by people who have ulterior motives. History says, if you get in a trade war with the US and we don't end up funding your opposition, an error has probably occurred or you are not very important.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
It seems that the Basic Law is more subtle than that (Article 45): " The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government. The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures." Regarding "independence", when some protesters attack symbols of the Chinese state (inc. flag) and fly foreign flags they are sending a muddled message...
- idlewords 7y ago
  By definition, at a mass protest you're going to get all kinds of people. The five demands represent a broad consensus across a very large slice of Hong Kong society. You can get a lot of attention bringing a foreign flag to a protest, but as Hong Kongers know it is a very small contingent of people who do it. One of them is a well-known, tiny, sweet old lady who got attacked by police last weekend.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    They've effectively won on the extradition bill, which realistically is the most they could get. Violence, disruption, and foreign flags might be from a minority but they have destroyed any sympathy the mainland opinion may have had towards the movement (and there was sympathy) and I think that they actually help the hardliners in Beijing.
    - Quiark 7y ago
      The bill was not withdrawn. It is likely that some of the violence was from undercover cops. But yes, optics matter, that's why they apologised after the airport.
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        > The bill was not withdrawn. Same difference, really...
        ilikehurdles 7y ago
        Then why not withdraw it?
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        To avoid total humiliation? Even if they withdraw it completely nothing prevent them from introducing another similar bill at a later time anyway, so protesters would not gain anything apart from having humiliated the executive even more.
concert-gilled 7y ago
Specific demands which amount to independence rather than integration.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago
  No, there is an important distinction between independence and autonomy. A majority of the protesters support "one country, two system", they just want the two systems to be preserved.
  - concert-gilled 7y ago
    They want autonomy which is functionally equivalent to independence.
    - crusty 7y ago
      Not really. And they are asking for the terms of an agreement made in 1997 to actually be honored. It's not like they are coming out of nowhere with original demands here. The demands boil down to something akin to: stop trying to fuck us over on the promises you made to us and the world!
- gwathk 7y ago
  It has nothing to do independence or not, but demanding CCP to keep its promises to Hong Kong people and using the usual legal framework now in Hong Kong to bring justice and peace back to the society

loyukfai 7y ago

And the five demands are not treated equally among the people: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433&id=100004245636237&ref=bookmarks https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433... Some of the core protesters (I don't have any objective figure) consider them a take it or leave it deal though.

smallnamespace 7y ago

Right, because they are smart about what sells, both to the international community and to China. But let's not kid ourselves that wants === demands

roboys 7y ago
> They are smart about what sells Alternatively, they are being influenced by people who have ulterior motives. History says, if you get in a trade war with the US and we don't end up funding your opposition, an error has probably occurred or you are not very important.

mytailorisrich 7y ago

It seems that the Basic Law is more subtle than that (Article 45): " The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government. The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures." Regarding "independence", when some protesters attack symbols of the Chinese state (inc. flag) and fly foreign flags they are sending a muddled message...

idlewords 7y ago
By definition, at a mass protest you're going to get all kinds of people. The five demands represent a broad consensus across a very large slice of Hong Kong society. You can get a lot of attention bringing a foreign flag to a protest, but as Hong Kongers know it is a very small contingent of people who do it. One of them is a well-known, tiny, sweet old lady who got attacked by police last weekend.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  They've effectively won on the extradition bill, which realistically is the most they could get. Violence, disruption, and foreign flags might be from a minority but they have destroyed any sympathy the mainland opinion may have had towards the movement (and there was sympathy) and I think that they actually help the hardliners in Beijing.
  - Quiark 7y ago
    The bill was not withdrawn. It is likely that some of the violence was from undercover cops. But yes, optics matter, that's why they apologised after the airport.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      > The bill was not withdrawn. Same difference, really...
      - ilikehurdles 7y ago
        Then why not withdraw it?
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        To avoid total humiliation? Even if they withdraw it completely nothing prevent them from introducing another similar bill at a later time anyway, so protesters would not gain anything apart from having humiliated the executive even more.

concert-gilled 7y ago

Specific demands which amount to independence rather than integration.

my_username_is_ 7y ago
No, there is an important distinction between independence and autonomy. A majority of the protesters support "one country, two system", they just want the two systems to be preserved.
- concert-gilled 7y ago
  They want autonomy which is functionally equivalent to independence.
  - crusty 7y ago
    Not really. And they are asking for the terms of an agreement made in 1997 to actually be honored. It's not like they are coming out of nowhere with original demands here. The demands boil down to something akin to: stop trying to fuck us over on the promises you made to us and the world!
gwathk 7y ago
It has nothing to do independence or not, but demanding CCP to keep its promises to Hong Kong people and using the usual legal framework now in Hong Kong to bring justice and peace back to the society