8 ms·

I think the biggest innovation of this kind that I've seen in use (anecdata, of course) is the number of commuter bikes fitted with belt drivetrains (Gates Carb

by wlkr 7y ago

I think the biggest innovation of this kind that I've seen in use (anecdata, of course) is the number of commuter bikes fitted with belt drivetrains (Gates Carbon Drive) paired with internally geared hubs. The reduction in maintenance effort is purported to be significant and it's not only limited to high-end bikes (plus it can be retrofitted although non-trivially for the majority of frames). When the cog wear becomes too bad on my single-speed I'll look into fitting a belt drive, if possible.

nordsieck 7y ago
> commuter bikes fitted with belt drivetrains (Gates Carbon Drive) paired with internally geared hubs. The reduction in maintenance effort is purported to be significant My understanding is that the tradeoffs are: 1. Weight 2. Cost 3. Lack of user serviceability. It definitely seems like a good tradeoff in some circumstances - particularly in rainy environments.
- maaaats 7y ago
  Or snowy with salt in the winter. For winter cycling the weight isn't really an issue for me, the bike is already sluggish with big studded tires and accessories and clothing etc. Maybe I will try it, the serviceability cannot be worse than the stuff I have to do now to maintain it..
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > the serviceability cannot be worse than the stuff I have to do now to maintain it.. My understanding is that you can't maintain the hub shifter at all. It's sealed so it's generally pretty low maintenance, but if/when it eventually breaks you have to send it to the factory for repair.
    - romwell 7y ago
      In my many years of having bikes with internal gear hubs, some new and some decades old, I've never had a single with them. The internal gear hubs have been perfected before derailers even became a thing; it's a very mature tech. You can[1] do some maintenance on them. I don't have any experience with that, as all my internally-hubbed bikes were stolen long before such a point :-) :-( [1]https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  It's a good tradeoff in commuter purposes. It's not a good tradeoff for racing, which is where most tech is developed. One big tradeoff you missed is efficiency. The belt drive is efficient, but internally geared hubs are currently less efficient than traditional derailleur setups. Losing watts to drivetrain loss is a major reason that internal hubs are not as popular with human powered bikes. The durability and maintenance need to be WAY better to get someone to switch over.
jwalton 7y ago
I'm interested in a belt drive, too, but mainly because I hate getting a greasy chain stamp on my leg. :P Belt drives don't need lube, so they stay pretty clean. I'm surprised there are retrofit kits. With a belt drive, usually one of the chain stays has a gap in it so you can get the belt on and off (you accomplish the same with a chain by taking a link out to install/remove the chain, but this is not an option with a belt).
- adrianN 7y ago
  It's probably cheaper to put some plastic around your chain.
- xavieralexandre 7y ago
  For a clean chain you can switch from a conventional lube to wax based lube. It’s a relatively involved process (You need to degrease your chain before application) but it keeps the chain relatively dry and clean. (Plus it’s slightly better performing than other lubes).
  - xchaotic 7y ago
    Scientific measurements or it didn’t happen. I think wax underperforms lube, prove me wrong.
    - flaviu2 7y ago
      https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-fa... See page 63 for efficiency and 64 for longevity. The graph on page 64 is confusingly labeled, but the numbers indicate "watts expended before wet dirty run" - "watts expended after".
- dotCOMmie 7y ago
  Bit niche but there is one company making split belt: https://www.veercycle.com/ https://www.veercycle.com/ But it's 3-5x the price of chain equivalent setup.
usrusr 7y ago
> (plus it can be retrofitted although non-trivially for the majority of frames) Not at all: the chain goes through a closed triangle in the frame by connecting two loose ends. The belt comes as a closed loop and needs a frame that can be opened. Additionally, frames build for chain gearing (instead of internal gears or single-speed/fixed) lack tension adjustment by either a horizontally adjustable dropout or a bottom bracket excenter mechanism.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  >Additionally, frames build for chain gearing (instead of internal gears or single-speed/fixed) lack tension adjustment by either a horizontally adjustable dropout or a bottom bracket excenter mechanism. Sliding dropouts are undoubtedly preferable, but any modern frame with a BB30 or PF30 bottom bracket can be trivially converted to an eccentric bottom bracket.
vinni2 7y ago
I have been using a bike with belt drive for about 2 years and while the lack of chain reduces some maintenance doing other maintenance like switching tires gets more complicated. And of course the loss of efficiency due to belt drive is also pretty bad. I am convinced that this will be my last belt drive bike.
- lampenrad 7y ago
  Another disadvantage is repairability. If your chain snaps you can fix it with a quick link or a pin and a little multitool with chain tool functionality. If your belt snaps you‘re screwed, unless you carry a spare belt everywhere.
  - pkulak 7y ago
    Has a belt ever snapped? Serious question. I've never heard of it happening, and the belt drive bike I've been riding for 4 years isn't even wearing, let alone close to snapping.
    - lampenrad 7y ago
      If you google gates belt drive snapped you‘ll find plenty of anecdata of belts lasting only a couple thousand kilometers (and others who ride them for tens of thousands of kilometers with no issues). Here‘s a (German) Video from a guy with a severely damaged (but still rideable) belt after 4500 km: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n16gN7RDWEY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n16gN7RDWEY In the comments you‘ll find people whose belts snapped at 1050 km, at 1000 km and one at less than 2000 km. I don‘t know how likely this is, it might be quite rare. But since it‘s non-repairable it‘d make me uneasy on longer bike rides.
    - rconti 7y ago
      I snapped a continental belt drive after 1000mi. It's been replaced with Gates. Hopefully it lasts longer.
      - pkulak 7y ago
rconti 7y ago
It's interesting, for sure. I've now commuted on 2 belt-drive systems. I wanted to love it. I'm settling more solidly for "mostly like". I bought a Ghost brand bike at REI (they're a German brand, but REI is the exclusive US distributor). The model is an "Urban" of some sort, can't remember which. It has an 8 speed Shimano Alfine internally geared hub. I really wanted a Spot Acme (made in Colorado) that was absolutely gorgeous, 11 speed hub, Gates Carbon drive, brooks leather saddle, etc. But that $2k+, and the Ghost was on sale from 1300ish to $850 if I recall correctly. It didn't have a dyanamo so I bought a Shutter Precision hub and had a local bike shop build up a wheel with a dynamo so I could run lights. The Ghost came with a Continental belt drive instead of the Gates. Instead of having the center groove of the Gates, the continental just... stays in place. Hopefully. The right side of the crank had a flange, and the left side of the hub gear had a flange, but the belt could technically fall off the 'other' side of either one. And it did, occasionally. Belt tension is regulated by how "tight" you make it by adjusting the rear wheel in place. The Ghost frame has angled dropouts sorta like a normal road bike (not horizontal dropouts like a motorcycle or like the Spot bikes I saw). It's a COLOSSAL pain in the ass for the average person to hold a heavy geared hub wheel in place with one hand, thread the nuts on with your second hand, use a wrench to tighten the nuts with your third hand, and deal with belt tension with your 4th hand. Not to mention keeping the wheel straight. And if you don't get the tension right (how many lbs of tension for a 1 inch drop, again?) the belt will fall off. Repeatedly. Another problem is that you need to unhook the shifter to remove the wheel. It's not that hard, but when you're a novice to these bikes, it's tricky because some models recommend you shift to the lowest gear; others to the highest. You need some needle-nosed pliers and some finagling to get the cable out. A problem specific to the Ghost was that the rear disc brake rotor ran into the caliper as you tried to slide the wheel out. So you ALSO have to unbolt the caliper to remove the rear wheel. Overall, it's a vastly bigger pain in the ass to remove the wheel on that bike than on a "normal" bike. God help you if you have a flat on the side of the road. I went through a bunch of different tube/tire combinations before I ended up with slime tubes, which i now HATE because the valve stem gets gummed up and leaks constantly, but I've spent a year or more dealing with it (adding air every week or so) because I'm too lazy to go through the hassle of removing the rear wheel to take out those godawful leaky slime tubes. (but at least I found a tire that's great and puncture-proof!) Anyway, back to the drive belt. After owning the bike for roughly 5 months and 1000 miles, while trying to cross a busy street, the belt snapped. I tried to source a replacement, but couldn't. I took the biek back to REI, where it sat for the better part of a month while they tried to find parts. To their credit, Ghost had discontinued use of the Continental system in favor of Gates, and as a goodwill gesture, they replaced the entire drive system of my bike with the Gates drive system. Knock on wood, the Gates system has been perfect, doesn't squeak like the continental system does, apparently isn't as picky about belt tension, won't slide off (because of the center groove). The shifting is less than perfect but I like the fact that geared hubs can shift in reverse, so you can downshift at a stoplight while waiting for a green. The spacing between the gears is a bit uneven, but I think it's a pretty good low-maintenance solution for a commuter bike. But it's not perfect.

by wlkr 7y ago

nordsieck 7y ago

> commuter bikes fitted with belt drivetrains (Gates Carbon Drive) paired with internally geared hubs. The reduction in maintenance effort is purported to be significant My understanding is that the tradeoffs are: 1. Weight 2. Cost 3. Lack of user serviceability. It definitely seems like a good tradeoff in some circumstances - particularly in rainy environments.

maaaats 7y ago
Or snowy with salt in the winter. For winter cycling the weight isn't really an issue for me, the bike is already sluggish with big studded tires and accessories and clothing etc. Maybe I will try it, the serviceability cannot be worse than the stuff I have to do now to maintain it..
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > the serviceability cannot be worse than the stuff I have to do now to maintain it.. My understanding is that you can't maintain the hub shifter at all. It's sealed so it's generally pretty low maintenance, but if/when it eventually breaks you have to send it to the factory for repair.
  - romwell 7y ago
    In my many years of having bikes with internal gear hubs, some new and some decades old, I've never had a single with them. The internal gear hubs have been perfected before derailers even became a thing; it's a very mature tech. You can[1] do some maintenance on them. I don't have any experience with that, as all my internally-hubbed bikes were stolen long before such a point :-) :-( [1]https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html
parsimo2010 7y ago
It's a good tradeoff in commuter purposes. It's not a good tradeoff for racing, which is where most tech is developed. One big tradeoff you missed is efficiency. The belt drive is efficient, but internally geared hubs are currently less efficient than traditional derailleur setups. Losing watts to drivetrain loss is a major reason that internal hubs are not as popular with human powered bikes. The durability and maintenance need to be WAY better to get someone to switch over.

jwalton 7y ago

I'm interested in a belt drive, too, but mainly because I hate getting a greasy chain stamp on my leg. :P Belt drives don't need lube, so they stay pretty clean. I'm surprised there are retrofit kits. With a belt drive, usually one of the chain stays has a gap in it so you can get the belt on and off (you accomplish the same with a chain by taking a link out to install/remove the chain, but this is not an option with a belt).

adrianN 7y ago
It's probably cheaper to put some plastic around your chain.
xavieralexandre 7y ago
For a clean chain you can switch from a conventional lube to wax based lube. It’s a relatively involved process (You need to degrease your chain before application) but it keeps the chain relatively dry and clean. (Plus it’s slightly better performing than other lubes).
- xchaotic 7y ago
  Scientific measurements or it didn’t happen. I think wax underperforms lube, prove me wrong.
  - flaviu2 7y ago
    https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-fa... See page 63 for efficiency and 64 for longevity. The graph on page 64 is confusingly labeled, but the numbers indicate "watts expended before wet dirty run" - "watts expended after".
dotCOMmie 7y ago
Bit niche but there is one company making split belt: https://www.veercycle.com/ https://www.veercycle.com/ But it's 3-5x the price of chain equivalent setup.

usrusr 7y ago

> (plus it can be retrofitted although non-trivially for the majority of frames) Not at all: the chain goes through a closed triangle in the frame by connecting two loose ends. The belt comes as a closed loop and needs a frame that can be opened. Additionally, frames build for chain gearing (instead of internal gears or single-speed/fixed) lack tension adjustment by either a horizontally adjustable dropout or a bottom bracket excenter mechanism.

jdietrich 7y ago
>Additionally, frames build for chain gearing (instead of internal gears or single-speed/fixed) lack tension adjustment by either a horizontally adjustable dropout or a bottom bracket excenter mechanism. Sliding dropouts are undoubtedly preferable, but any modern frame with a BB30 or PF30 bottom bracket can be trivially converted to an eccentric bottom bracket.

vinni2 7y ago

I have been using a bike with belt drive for about 2 years and while the lack of chain reduces some maintenance doing other maintenance like switching tires gets more complicated. And of course the loss of efficiency due to belt drive is also pretty bad. I am convinced that this will be my last belt drive bike.

lampenrad 7y ago
Another disadvantage is repairability. If your chain snaps you can fix it with a quick link or a pin and a little multitool with chain tool functionality. If your belt snaps you‘re screwed, unless you carry a spare belt everywhere.
- pkulak 7y ago
  Has a belt ever snapped? Serious question. I've never heard of it happening, and the belt drive bike I've been riding for 4 years isn't even wearing, let alone close to snapping.
  - lampenrad 7y ago
    If you google gates belt drive snapped you‘ll find plenty of anecdata of belts lasting only a couple thousand kilometers (and others who ride them for tens of thousands of kilometers with no issues). Here‘s a (German) Video from a guy with a severely damaged (but still rideable) belt after 4500 km: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n16gN7RDWEY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n16gN7RDWEY In the comments you‘ll find people whose belts snapped at 1050 km, at 1000 km and one at less than 2000 km. I don‘t know how likely this is, it might be quite rare. But since it‘s non-repairable it‘d make me uneasy on longer bike rides.
  - rconti 7y ago
    I snapped a continental belt drive after 1000mi. It's been replaced with Gates. Hopefully it lasts longer.
    - pkulak 7y ago

rconti 7y ago

It's interesting, for sure. I've now commuted on 2 belt-drive systems. I wanted to love it. I'm settling more solidly for "mostly like". I bought a Ghost brand bike at REI (they're a German brand, but REI is the exclusive US distributor). The model is an "Urban" of some sort, can't remember which. It has an 8 speed Shimano Alfine internally geared hub. I really wanted a Spot Acme (made in Colorado) that was absolutely gorgeous, 11 speed hub, Gates Carbon drive, brooks leather saddle, etc. But that $2k+, and the Ghost was on sale from 1300ish to $850 if I recall correctly. It didn't have a dyanamo so I bought a Shutter Precision hub and had a local bike shop build up a wheel with a dynamo so I could run lights. The Ghost came with a Continental belt drive instead of the Gates. Instead of having the center groove of the Gates, the continental just... stays in place. Hopefully. The right side of the crank had a flange, and the left side of the hub gear had a flange, but the belt could technically fall off the 'other' side of either one. And it did, occasionally. Belt tension is regulated by how "tight" you make it by adjusting the rear wheel in place. The Ghost frame has angled dropouts sorta like a normal road bike (not horizontal dropouts like a motorcycle or like the Spot bikes I saw). It's a COLOSSAL pain in the ass for the average person to hold a heavy geared hub wheel in place with one hand, thread the nuts on with your second hand, use a wrench to tighten the nuts with your third hand, and deal with belt tension with your 4th hand. Not to mention keeping the wheel straight. And if you don't get the tension right (how many lbs of tension for a 1 inch drop, again?) the belt will fall off. Repeatedly. Another problem is that you need to unhook the shifter to remove the wheel. It's not that hard, but when you're a novice to these bikes, it's tricky because some models recommend you shift to the lowest gear; others to the highest. You need some needle-nosed pliers and some finagling to get the cable out. A problem specific to the Ghost was that the rear disc brake rotor ran into the caliper as you tried to slide the wheel out. So you ALSO have to unbolt the caliper to remove the rear wheel. Overall, it's a vastly bigger pain in the ass to remove the wheel on that bike than on a "normal" bike. God help you if you have a flat on the side of the road. I went through a bunch of different tube/tire combinations before I ended up with slime tubes, which i now HATE because the valve stem gets gummed up and leaks constantly, but I've spent a year or more dealing with it (adding air every week or so) because I'm too lazy to go through the hassle of removing the rear wheel to take out those godawful leaky slime tubes. (but at least I found a tire that's great and puncture-proof!) Anyway, back to the drive belt. After owning the bike for roughly 5 months and 1000 miles, while trying to cross a busy street, the belt snapped. I tried to source a replacement, but couldn't. I took the biek back to REI, where it sat for the better part of a month while they tried to find parts. To their credit, Ghost had discontinued use of the Continental system in favor of Gates, and as a goodwill gesture, they replaced the entire drive system of my bike with the Gates drive system. Knock on wood, the Gates system has been perfect, doesn't squeak like the continental system does, apparently isn't as picky about belt tension, won't slide off (because of the center groove). The shifting is less than perfect but I like the fact that geared hubs can shift in reverse, so you can downshift at a stoplight while waiting for a green. The spacing between the gears is a bit uneven, but I think it's a pretty good low-maintenance solution for a commuter bike. But it's not perfect.