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The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own intere

by roca 7y ago

The idea that democracy and freedom are somehow foreign to Chinese people and can't work in their culture is a myth peddled by the CCP to serve their own interests. Democracy and freedom are flourishing in Taiwan. They are flourishing in South Korea (who aren't Chinese but whose traditions are no more democratic than China's). They're doing OK in Japan. "The Chinese point of view" is an ambiguous term that the CCP uses to its advantage. In fact it is the Chinese Communist Party's point of view, which they have managed to indoctrinate into most Chinese citizens via their control of all Chinese media. Where Chinese people have escaped CCP influence, they tend to have quite a different point of view.

alexmlamb2 7y ago
I think you may not realize this, but you've been brainwashed by western propaganda (I grew up in the west, but I've been exposed to many different countries, so I understand this better now). The idea that "freedom" is the freedom for society to be controlled by large corporations and the wealthy is not the only notion of freedom, and many prefer a technocratic / meritocratic society over a plutocratic one. I think most Chinese people understand this, as well as a sizable fraction of literate/intelligent people in the west. Unfortunately many westerns, like you, just like to turn their brain off and believe whatever their TV tells them to believe.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Is that why most of the relatives of the top brass in CCP, and wealthy Chinese business people are holding passports of foreign countries?
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Large Western corporations do not select which books I'm permitted to read. Large Western corporations do not forbid me from criticizing their CEO's. Large Western corporations do not harvest organs from the poor. Large Western corporations do not imprison minorities in concentration camps. Large Western corporations do not scrape thousands of protesters into a gutter with bulldozers and disappear anyone who speaks of the incident
  - tombh 7y ago
    And that is exactly what Western propaganda looks like: absolute and automatic conviction of superiority. The truth is large Western corporations invented most of the things you describe and are now so advanced you don't even recognise it. Unchecked political lobbying dictates the major themes of news cycles and school curriculums, the places where censorship and distortion of the written word most matters. (Eg. Facebook and Cambridge Analytica) CEO's and rich people are beyond the legal system, which is the ultimate arbiter of criticism. (Eg. Jeffrey Epstein) Granted, it is indeed true, thankfully large Western corporations do not harvest organs from the poor. Though you need to know about the British and Dutch East India trading companies, arguable some of the most evil entities to ever exist. They had standing armies that slaughtered, committed state-backed genocides, enslaved, raped and stole. What's more they are the very source of how the modern concept of a corporation came to be. And if you want a modern example then look at the large Western corporation of Nestle. My understanding of China's concentration camps is that they're more like re-education camps, please correct me if I'm wrong. But besides, we're all happily buying things like iPhones that are made in what amount to exploitation camps. Indeed this refers to the previous paragraph, in many ways the fundamental definition of Western power arises from its corporate exploitation of human beings for economic greed. I also agree that large Western corporations don't scrape thousands of protests into gutters with bulldozers. The West is much more intelligent. It enables proxies wars in the Middle East that kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilians for daring to speak out about oppression and not letting the West have free access to geopolitical assets and commercial resources like oil. If you want to make bold statements, then you have to say the West is worse than China. But this isn't a competition for who is best or worst. We are all on both sides and are all implicated in the solution to this inextricably global problem.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- rhinovshippo 7y ago
  True freedom exists at the personal, inner level, each individual must earn it for themselves. How little Americans personally value the kind of external (political) freedom which they talk up as the absolute good and sacred can be observed in the 10% ish turn out rates in cities like NY and SF, as well as in how everyone tries to get out of jury duty as much as they can.
  - jnbiche 7y ago
    > everyone tries to get out of jury duty as much as they can. Perhaps it's the fact that I live in a smaller city, but literally no one I know had tried to get out off jury duty, except one friends in the last months of her pregnancy when she had preeclampsia and was ordered by the doctor to rest (so a legitimate reason). One advantage of this is I get to hear all kinds of great stories about various cases (including a murder, in one case).
whoevercares 7y ago
I saw the many citations of Taiwan, Korea and many other small country (even Japan) as the example that democracy can work as is for China. IMO the scale and population is drastically different. Couple things make it complicated: 1) over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understand democracy good luck educating millions of people across vast areas(thanks to Chinese government you might be able to take trains) 2)Middle and upper class Chineses have more different point of view, but they rarely choose to move since it’s against their own interests 3) The other countries listed are historically US strategic allies with even US troops deployed. Ironically what US did will only pushback Chinese people from wanting western style democracy I believe democracy in China will happen one day (I believe it’ll be top-down) but the majority of the population doesn’t have any motivation right now
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  Regarding 1, many western countries developed their democratic system when their populations were largely agrarian. In those cases however many of the people with money or political power (who were the first to be given a vote) were also spread throughout the countryside and that is probably not the case in China.
- roca 7y ago
  China is different from those other countries and would face different challenges but the argument often made is that democracy is incompatible with Chinese culture or somehow otherwise inappropriate for Chinese people and that is simply not so. Obviously democracy isn't traditional in Chinese culture, or just about any culture including "the West" if you look back more than few centuries, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.
- hamster-wheel 7y ago
  >over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understand democracy good luck educating millions of people across vast areas Sounds a lot like India, the world's largest democracy 🇮🇳
bllguo 7y ago
The CCP and the Chinese culture believes in social harmony and the good of society over the good of the individual. You believe in personal liberties over all, and you have implicitly assumed this philosophy to be the universal moral standard. Why are the Chinese the ones who are "indoctrinated" while you are the enlightened one? I'd also like to point out that considering current world affairs, this is the worst time in decades to so confidently assert that democracy is the ideal form of government.
- roca 7y ago
  > You believe in personal liberties over all, I actually don't, so please don't make assumptions about what I believe. I do believe that people should not be ruled by autocrats for the benefit of the rulers, and that is inevitably what happens in autocratic systems. Democracy is the best system I know of for ensuring that governments work for the benefit of the people. That doesn't mean the good of the individual trumps the good of society. Regular peaceful transfer of power is good for society and social harmony in the long run, because it's clear from history that the alternative is violent revolution or stagnation and collapse. > I'd also like to point out that considering current world affairs, this is the worst time in decades to so confidently assert that democracy is the ideal form of government. The Internet and other technological changes are disproportionately aiding autocrats and hurting democracies. I hope democracies will learn to cope with that, but whether they do or not, it doesn't make autocracy good.

by roca 7y ago

alexmlamb2 7y ago

I think you may not realize this, but you've been brainwashed by western propaganda (I grew up in the west, but I've been exposed to many different countries, so I understand this better now). The idea that "freedom" is the freedom for society to be controlled by large corporations and the wealthy is not the only notion of freedom, and many prefer a technocratic / meritocratic society over a plutocratic one. I think most Chinese people understand this, as well as a sizable fraction of literate/intelligent people in the west. Unfortunately many westerns, like you, just like to turn their brain off and believe whatever their TV tells them to believe.

loyukfai 7y ago
Is that why most of the relatives of the top brass in CCP, and wealthy Chinese business people are holding passports of foreign countries?
homonculus1 7y ago
Large Western corporations do not select which books I'm permitted to read. Large Western corporations do not forbid me from criticizing their CEO's. Large Western corporations do not harvest organs from the poor. Large Western corporations do not imprison minorities in concentration camps. Large Western corporations do not scrape thousands of protesters into a gutter with bulldozers and disappear anyone who speaks of the incident
- tombh 7y ago
  And that is exactly what Western propaganda looks like: absolute and automatic conviction of superiority. The truth is large Western corporations invented most of the things you describe and are now so advanced you don't even recognise it. Unchecked political lobbying dictates the major themes of news cycles and school curriculums, the places where censorship and distortion of the written word most matters. (Eg. Facebook and Cambridge Analytica) CEO's and rich people are beyond the legal system, which is the ultimate arbiter of criticism. (Eg. Jeffrey Epstein) Granted, it is indeed true, thankfully large Western corporations do not harvest organs from the poor. Though you need to know about the British and Dutch East India trading companies, arguable some of the most evil entities to ever exist. They had standing armies that slaughtered, committed state-backed genocides, enslaved, raped and stole. What's more they are the very source of how the modern concept of a corporation came to be. And if you want a modern example then look at the large Western corporation of Nestle. My understanding of China's concentration camps is that they're more like re-education camps, please correct me if I'm wrong. But besides, we're all happily buying things like iPhones that are made in what amount to exploitation camps. Indeed this refers to the previous paragraph, in many ways the fundamental definition of Western power arises from its corporate exploitation of human beings for economic greed. I also agree that large Western corporations don't scrape thousands of protests into gutters with bulldozers. The West is much more intelligent. It enables proxies wars in the Middle East that kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilians for daring to speak out about oppression and not letting the West have free access to geopolitical assets and commercial resources like oil. If you want to make bold statements, then you have to say the West is worse than China. But this isn't a competition for who is best or worst. We are all on both sides and are all implicated in the solution to this inextricably global problem.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
rhinovshippo 7y ago
True freedom exists at the personal, inner level, each individual must earn it for themselves. How little Americans personally value the kind of external (political) freedom which they talk up as the absolute good and sacred can be observed in the 10% ish turn out rates in cities like NY and SF, as well as in how everyone tries to get out of jury duty as much as they can.
- jnbiche 7y ago
  > everyone tries to get out of jury duty as much as they can. Perhaps it's the fact that I live in a smaller city, but literally no one I know had tried to get out off jury duty, except one friends in the last months of her pregnancy when she had preeclampsia and was ordered by the doctor to rest (so a legitimate reason). One advantage of this is I get to hear all kinds of great stories about various cases (including a murder, in one case).

whoevercares 7y ago

I saw the many citations of Taiwan, Korea and many other small country (even Japan) as the example that democracy can work as is for China. IMO the scale and population is drastically different. Couple things make it complicated: 1) over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understand democracy good luck educating millions of people across vast areas(thanks to Chinese government you might be able to take trains) 2)Middle and upper class Chineses have more different point of view, but they rarely choose to move since it’s against their own interests 3) The other countries listed are historically US strategic allies with even US troops deployed. Ironically what US did will only pushback Chinese people from wanting western style democracy I believe democracy in China will happen one day (I believe it’ll be top-down) but the majority of the population doesn’t have any motivation right now

dan-robertson 7y ago
Regarding 1, many western countries developed their democratic system when their populations were largely agrarian. In those cases however many of the people with money or political power (who were the first to be given a vote) were also spread throughout the countryside and that is probably not the case in China.
roca 7y ago
China is different from those other countries and would face different challenges but the argument often made is that democracy is incompatible with Chinese culture or somehow otherwise inappropriate for Chinese people and that is simply not so. Obviously democracy isn't traditional in Chinese culture, or just about any culture including "the West" if you look back more than few centuries, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.
hamster-wheel 7y ago
>over 800M rural population with most of them under-educated. High school is not common and the villagers will celebrate if one of the kids made it to college. If you want them to understand democracy good luck educating millions of people across vast areas Sounds a lot like India, the world's largest democracy 🇮🇳

bllguo 7y ago

The CCP and the Chinese culture believes in social harmony and the good of society over the good of the individual. You believe in personal liberties over all, and you have implicitly assumed this philosophy to be the universal moral standard. Why are the Chinese the ones who are "indoctrinated" while you are the enlightened one? I'd also like to point out that considering current world affairs, this is the worst time in decades to so confidently assert that democracy is the ideal form of government.

roca 7y ago
> You believe in personal liberties over all, I actually don't, so please don't make assumptions about what I believe. I do believe that people should not be ruled by autocrats for the benefit of the rulers, and that is inevitably what happens in autocratic systems. Democracy is the best system I know of for ensuring that governments work for the benefit of the people. That doesn't mean the good of the individual trumps the good of society. Regular peaceful transfer of power is good for society and social harmony in the long run, because it's clear from history that the alternative is violent revolution or stagnation and collapse. > I'd also like to point out that considering current world affairs, this is the worst time in decades to so confidently assert that democracy is the ideal form of government. The Internet and other technological changes are disproportionately aiding autocrats and hurting democracies. I hope democracies will learn to cope with that, but whether they do or not, it doesn't make autocracy good.