5 ms·

Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Gr

by Joakal 7y ago

Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for that matter).

tanilama 7y ago
Actually I don't think so. It is much more than losing face. Losing sovereignity in East Asian countries, where nationalism is hyper active, is an attack directly on national identity. The Chinese government now will cease to exist if it yields to independence demands from any of the separationist region. The nationalistic education has been ingrained into society at large, something nobody dares to question.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  Yes I agree with you nationalism is ingrained from childhood and this makes it harder for minority who are against blind nationalism. This has been true for all the 70+ countries I lived and traveled. But I still believe in this quote: "Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live." By a Noble Laureate.
  - gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
    patriotism != nationalism
    - reroute1 7y ago
      obviously he just gave a quote explaining that
    - dragonsh 7y ago
      Actually this is another such explanation to justify one over the other. I am a believer that world should be built and bound by human to human connections and love, not by some utilitarian construct like nationalism. You can read the book of that noble laureate who influenced me, on this subject from Gutenberg press: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766
- bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
  Losing sovreignity is the country scale version of losing face.
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    In my view it's not losing face, but loss of identity and dignity given nationalistic education. If one wants to conflat the meaning of face to identity and dignity then it can apply to any country or individual.
  - roboys 7y ago
    Like what happened when HK was stolen by invaders. The over-correction in response is to be expected, regardless of how delayed it might seem.
rqs 7y ago
If by "lose face" you mean display of weakness, then you probably right. The government don't actually care about face here, they only care about outcome. In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. The government needs Hongkong, and hey need Hongkong under control, just like the rest of China. If they failed, their public image of power will be damaged. However, if they can turn Hongkong into "the rest of China" alike, then that's a success showcase of power for them.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  At the same time, PRC government doesn't want to turn HK instead exactly another Chinese city... (the closest one would be Shanghai, I guess.) There are interesting historical issues, economical issues, geopolitics (especially Taiwan) and international politics at play. But yes, in a certain sense the PRC want to turn HK into "the rest of China" alike, in the sense that you can have economic freedom and many other things, however politically one must submit to the supreme rule of the party.
  - addicted 7y ago
    I am not sure how true it is thst the govt doesn’t want to turn HK into just another Chinese city. The belief was that HK’s economic value to China would protect the one country 2 systems status. However, the Chinese govt appears to have convinced itself with the rise of its major cities (such as Shenzhen) and general economy that HK isn’t unique, and any economic benefits the political autonomy provides is far outweighed by the political risk and control. The protests, ironically, strengthen this thinking. And they feel they can compensate for the economic losses by simply creating SEZs. I think the Chinese govt now believes that HK is not really special anymore, and if anything, is probably falling behind other Chinese cities.
    - loyukfai 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kong_Policy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kon...
3131s 7y ago
This idea that "saving face" is uniquely central to Asian cultures is complete nonsense. It's a common metaphor in Asian languages, that's it -- the desire to avoid embarrassment is an absolutely universal human trait.
- jki275 7y ago
  Asian cultures take it far further than western cultures.
- rhinovshippo 7y ago
  "face" is the word one uses when one wants to put a negative spin on it. It, along with "kowtow", are very much dog-whistles for a certain crowd. Have you ever laughed at a joke even though you don't find it funny, because the teller made a great effort telling it and you shudders to think how you would feel if your interlocutor exhibited completely no reaction? If the answer is yes, the concept is as much operative for you as it is in Chinese culture.
  - bart_spoon 7y ago
    You are correct that "face" isn't an idea that is unique to Asia. But on the other hand, if you don't think there is an extra emphasis on it in certain Asian cultures (can't speak for China, but I have lots of experience with Japan), you are simply wrong. The lengths Japanese people go to avoid bucking a trend, or staying within the cultural boundaries is, on average, much further than most Western cultures would. For what its worth, I don't think this is a good or a bad thing. While it can certainly have its problems, I also think its a key ingredient in why many macro-scale societal issues in Japan (mega cities, public transportation, crime, etc.) simply seem to work better, more efficiently, and with less friction than Western counterparts (particularly the US).
    - roboys 7y ago
      "Strong sense of pride" perhaps, characterizing it as "face saving" seems to imply that a loss has already occurred.
gwathk 7y ago
It is very sad to compare an iron fist of holding power with a more subtle aspect in Chinese culture. The violence committed is incomparable. Though you might argue the face and guanxi culture is more subtle brutality.

by Joakal 7y ago

tanilama 7y ago

Actually I don't think so. It is much more than losing face. Losing sovereignity in East Asian countries, where nationalism is hyper active, is an attack directly on national identity. The Chinese government now will cease to exist if it yields to independence demands from any of the separationist region. The nationalistic education has been ingrained into society at large, something nobody dares to question.

dragonsh 7y ago
Yes I agree with you nationalism is ingrained from childhood and this makes it harder for minority who are against blind nationalism. This has been true for all the 70+ countries I lived and traveled. But I still believe in this quote: "Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live." By a Noble Laureate.
- gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
  patriotism != nationalism
  - reroute1 7y ago
    obviously he just gave a quote explaining that
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    Actually this is another such explanation to justify one over the other. I am a believer that world should be built and bound by human to human connections and love, not by some utilitarian construct like nationalism. You can read the book of that noble laureate who influenced me, on this subject from Gutenberg press: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766
bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
Losing sovreignity is the country scale version of losing face.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  In my view it's not losing face, but loss of identity and dignity given nationalistic education. If one wants to conflat the meaning of face to identity and dignity then it can apply to any country or individual.
- roboys 7y ago
  Like what happened when HK was stolen by invaders. The over-correction in response is to be expected, regardless of how delayed it might seem.

rqs 7y ago

If by "lose face" you mean display of weakness, then you probably right. The government don't actually care about face here, they only care about outcome. In mainland, people sees the government as the ruler. They are not there to serve you, they are there to manage you. They never make mistake, and you must follow their lead. The government needs Hongkong, and hey need Hongkong under control, just like the rest of China. If they failed, their public image of power will be damaged. However, if they can turn Hongkong into "the rest of China" alike, then that's a success showcase of power for them.

loyukfai 7y ago
At the same time, PRC government doesn't want to turn HK instead exactly another Chinese city... (the closest one would be Shanghai, I guess.) There are interesting historical issues, economical issues, geopolitics (especially Taiwan) and international politics at play. But yes, in a certain sense the PRC want to turn HK into "the rest of China" alike, in the sense that you can have economic freedom and many other things, however politically one must submit to the supreme rule of the party.
- addicted 7y ago
  I am not sure how true it is thst the govt doesn’t want to turn HK into just another Chinese city. The belief was that HK’s economic value to China would protect the one country 2 systems status. However, the Chinese govt appears to have convinced itself with the rise of its major cities (such as Shenzhen) and general economy that HK isn’t unique, and any economic benefits the political autonomy provides is far outweighed by the political risk and control. The protests, ironically, strengthen this thinking. And they feel they can compensate for the economic losses by simply creating SEZs. I think the Chinese govt now believes that HK is not really special anymore, and if anything, is probably falling behind other Chinese cities.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kong_Policy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Hong_Kon...

3131s 7y ago

This idea that "saving face" is uniquely central to Asian cultures is complete nonsense. It's a common metaphor in Asian languages, that's it -- the desire to avoid embarrassment is an absolutely universal human trait.

jki275 7y ago
Asian cultures take it far further than western cultures.
rhinovshippo 7y ago
"face" is the word one uses when one wants to put a negative spin on it. It, along with "kowtow", are very much dog-whistles for a certain crowd. Have you ever laughed at a joke even though you don't find it funny, because the teller made a great effort telling it and you shudders to think how you would feel if your interlocutor exhibited completely no reaction? If the answer is yes, the concept is as much operative for you as it is in Chinese culture.
- bart_spoon 7y ago
  You are correct that "face" isn't an idea that is unique to Asia. But on the other hand, if you don't think there is an extra emphasis on it in certain Asian cultures (can't speak for China, but I have lots of experience with Japan), you are simply wrong. The lengths Japanese people go to avoid bucking a trend, or staying within the cultural boundaries is, on average, much further than most Western cultures would. For what its worth, I don't think this is a good or a bad thing. While it can certainly have its problems, I also think its a key ingredient in why many macro-scale societal issues in Japan (mega cities, public transportation, crime, etc.) simply seem to work better, more efficiently, and with less friction than Western counterparts (particularly the US).
  - roboys 7y ago
    "Strong sense of pride" perhaps, characterizing it as "face saving" seems to imply that a loss has already occurred.

gwathk 7y ago

It is very sad to compare an iron fist of holding power with a more subtle aspect in Chinese culture. The violence committed is incomparable. Though you might argue the face and guanxi culture is more subtle brutality.