7 ms·

In its struggle to subdue Kashmir, India is stripping it of liberties

64 points by salqadri 7y ago

alpha0mega 7y ago
lies are being spread. Indian Govt's precautionary measure ensured no loss of life. Pakistan and its sympathizers spreading fake news to cause disturbance in Kashmir so that a large scale loss of life happen and then they can cry and do drama on world stage and accuse India. Don't fall for that propaganda.
shuaib 7y ago
Will there be a time when in the modern world, no territory will be forcefully occupied? Or do homosapiens lack the mental maturity to reach that point in their evolution?
- Yetanfou 7y ago
  Homo Sapiens has evolved to the currently dominant species partly due to its tendency to conquer and subdue - others of the same species, other species or the landscape. If Homo Sapiens were to reach this "mental maturity" it would most likely stagnate and, eventually, make space for another species to rise in its place. War and strife may lead to suffering and loss but they also provide a huge impetus to innovate on all fronts.
  - shuaib 7y ago
    Are you suggesting we need to keep a balance between war and peace? That too much peace will lead to our extinction?
    - PeterisP 7y ago
      Not necessarily to extinction but to loss of control - I mean, becoming peaceful often means not investing in defence capability thus becoming weak, and becoming weak means inviting violence by opportunistic neighbours or inside groups. It's a coordination problem - as any subgroup of homo sapiens that unilaterally abstains from violent power risks simply being overtaken by another subgroup that doesn't; you can abstain from using violence, but you can't unilaterally abstain from participating in violence started by someone else. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" will be true while humans are built the way we are.
      - newen 7y ago
        A good example is Tibet.
  - Udo 7y ago
    > Homo Sapiens has evolved to the currently dominant species partly due to its tendency to conquer and subdue GP asked whether it was in the cards to have a world where no territory is forcefully occupied. No forceful occupation means that the people who live in a region get a say in choosing their government. Nobody is really arguing we cede Kashmir to a competing species. > If Homo Sapiens were to reach this "mental maturity" it would most likely stagnate and, eventually, make space for another species to rise in its place. Are you arguing that science and other problem solving strategies at peace are dooming the species to extinction, and that only war and suffering can ensure our continued existence and progress?
- onyb 7y ago
  It's also useful to point out that Kashmir was neither a part of India nor Pakistan after independence from the British in 1947. It was only after Pakistan launched an operation to capture Kashmir, that the then ruler of Kashmir signed an "Instrument of Accession" with India, in exchange for military assistance.
ignoramous 7y ago
The Kashmir issue is an impasse. Neither will Pakistan relent its stake, nor will India relinquish its position any further and unfortunately the Kashmiris aren't going to get their freedom from either of these nuclear superpowers, at least not without a lot of pain (they have been subject to too much, already). The blood-shed and injustice is simply not fair, and it can't go on forever. Despite autonomy granted by Pakistan to mountainous region of Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, they have allowed settlement of Pakistanis from other parts of the country diluting the native population. Though revenue and governance is legally kept aloof from Islamabad, the overarching influence of the occupiers cannot be understated. Pakistani administered Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, for all intents and purposes, is a fully integrated territory. The Pakistani constitution doesn't allot right to independence and pro-independence political parties aren't allowed to contest elections. 'Azad Kashmir', as Pakistani administered Kashmir is commonly known, is a misnomer. India, in comparison, had afforded more political and legal leeway to the Jammu and Kashmir apparatus. They curbed down on it heavily after the insurgency of millitants in 1990s by slapping the territory with a god awful special powers military act viz. AFSPA. Since things aren't going to change in the short term, it completely makes sense for the Indian interests to begin to integrate Jammu and Kashmir along with adjoining buddhist regions of Leh and Ladakh into the constitution. The protests from Kashmiris are valid, justified, and correct; but I can't see India backing down from this. They need to stabilise the region than leave it in a perennial limbo flanked by oppressive and terrible military control on one side and the insurgent, violent struggle on the other. It is sad that erstwhile Indian PM, Morarji Desai and the then Pakistani President, Zia ul Haq couldn't put this issue to bed in 1980s when they had the chance. It will take leaders of incredible will, power, audacity, and sway on both sides of the border to bring this issue to bed for once and for all: Allegories will be written, songs will be sung, statues will be built, and peace will return to this beautiful land. Someday. The Kashmiris deserve it. Refs: https://rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11spec.htm https://rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11spec.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_(Special_Powers)_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_(Special_Powers)_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_mediation_of_the_Kashmir_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_mediation_of_the_Kashmir_di... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_(princely_state) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_(princely_st... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir
m0llusk 7y ago
Liberties are certainly an issue. By shutting down media and networks people are being stripped of their visibility. This is being done to avoid responsibility for currently actions being taken. Not being able to openly discuss what you are doing is a clear sign you shouldn't be doing that.
- chewbacha 7y ago
  Wouldn’t freedom of assembly, speech, and press be grouped into liberties?
  - m0llusk 7y ago
    Yes, but simply being visible is even more basic. Rendering someone invisible is an attack upon their person that goes beyond limiting their liberty.
fromreddit 7y ago
Some relevant Wikipedia links 1- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya 2 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_places_of_worship_into_mosques https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_pl... 3 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazwa-e-Hind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazwa-e-Hind 4 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya 5 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal 6 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam) 7 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement 8 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus 9 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_India_with_a_Thousand_Cuts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_India_with_a_Thousand_... 10 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_explo... 11 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Relationship_with_Muhammad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Relationship_with_Muha... 12 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam Please read all of these wiki links in detail and think about each of them. I have not put any news/oped/ links. Nor am I putting anything of my own. The western world needs to know what is coming for them, I am not saying that what is coming for them is good or bad, but it's coming.
whydoyoucare 7y ago
Unfortunately, the issue requires a significant historical context, which is carefully stripped from most of these media articles to control the narrative. :-/
- icsllaf 7y ago
  Do you really need context when a country is stripping its citizens of the right of communication, movement, and religion?
  - andonisus 7y ago
    Yes?
    - icsllaf 7y ago
      I disagree and say that when human rights are removed, it doesn't matter what the context is. 1. Terrorists deserve the same human rights as normal people. 2. The removal of liberties is extended upon all citizens making this province an open air jail. The fact that the situation in Kashmir changed so rapidly as well doesn't bode well for the reasoning behind this crackdown as well.
      - andonisus 7y ago
        The question was not if having context justifies the action, but rather if having context helps better understand the reasons this happened.
  - awadheshv 7y ago
    Is it justified to temporarily suspend rights/privileges of 100 people to stop some 2 people from creating a situation where 2 other people lose their lives? kashmir has been a breeding ground for islamic terrorists from quite some time now. some consider it an achievement that there has not been any loss of life (as a result of recent restrictions). there are vested political interest at work from all sides involved and nobody cares about anybodys rights.
InfinityByTen 7y ago
BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0] Also the other protest accepted by India could be a different one altogether, hence pictured differently and was possibly an actual one which happened days after BBC released their video. Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech. The region has been constitutionally provided for a democratic government, despite the split. This piece of information somehow passes through the crevices of fractured media into oblivion. China and Pakistan's stance is understandable since it is also a measure to tackle the Roadway China has been building through Pakistan to reach the ports and open up its trade routes. All of this with a funding of terrorism and extremism.
- unmole 7y ago
  > BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. This is bullshit. Even the Home Ministry has walked back from the There were no protests line. Source: https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/08/14/the-truth-about-bbc-al-jazeera-reuters-reports-of-unrest-in-soura-kashmir https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/08/14/the-truth-about-bbc-a...
  - InfinityByTen 7y ago
    Guess you were too busy with your opinionated columns to look at the video marked as a reference.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  I think you would agree that you're assessing the situation with a whole lot of bias. > Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech This is harsh. One could equally argue that the Hindustani and Pakistani governments are terrorizing the Kashmir valley, with their security measures and counter-measures. There's more to this issue than misplaced nationalism with countless layers and nuances, though, I agree it is in India's interest to deal with the Kashmir dispute in a way it sees fit and call it a day, since the agreed plebiscite isn't acceptable to it, at all.
fromreddit 7y ago
Why did my comment get flagged? All I did was paste Wikipedia links. Not even a news/ not even my any statement. Is Wikipedia also a being considered a bait?
gfgvybhfft 7y ago
Western double standards at play again. There were more than 50k people died because of Pakistan sponsored and controlled terrorism in India. Native populations of Kashmiri Pandits have been cleansed out because of their religion. Kashmir was an integral part of India and will remain so.

64 points by salqadri 7y ago

lies are being spread. Indian Govt's precautionary measure ensured no loss of life. Pakistan and its sympathizers spreading fake news to cause disturbance in Kashmir so that a large scale loss of life happen and then they can cry and do drama on world stage and accuse India. Don't fall for that propaganda.

shuaib 7y ago

Will there be a time when in the modern world, no territory will be forcefully occupied? Or do homosapiens lack the mental maturity to reach that point in their evolution?

Yetanfou 7y ago
Homo Sapiens has evolved to the currently dominant species partly due to its tendency to conquer and subdue - others of the same species, other species or the landscape. If Homo Sapiens were to reach this "mental maturity" it would most likely stagnate and, eventually, make space for another species to rise in its place. War and strife may lead to suffering and loss but they also provide a huge impetus to innovate on all fronts.
- shuaib 7y ago
  Are you suggesting we need to keep a balance between war and peace? That too much peace will lead to our extinction?
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    Not necessarily to extinction but to loss of control - I mean, becoming peaceful often means not investing in defence capability thus becoming weak, and becoming weak means inviting violence by opportunistic neighbours or inside groups. It's a coordination problem - as any subgroup of homo sapiens that unilaterally abstains from violent power risks simply being overtaken by another subgroup that doesn't; you can abstain from using violence, but you can't unilaterally abstain from participating in violence started by someone else. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" will be true while humans are built the way we are.
    - newen 7y ago
      A good example is Tibet.
- Udo 7y ago
  > Homo Sapiens has evolved to the currently dominant species partly due to its tendency to conquer and subdue GP asked whether it was in the cards to have a world where no territory is forcefully occupied. No forceful occupation means that the people who live in a region get a say in choosing their government. Nobody is really arguing we cede Kashmir to a competing species. > If Homo Sapiens were to reach this "mental maturity" it would most likely stagnate and, eventually, make space for another species to rise in its place. Are you arguing that science and other problem solving strategies at peace are dooming the species to extinction, and that only war and suffering can ensure our continued existence and progress?
onyb 7y ago
It's also useful to point out that Kashmir was neither a part of India nor Pakistan after independence from the British in 1947. It was only after Pakistan launched an operation to capture Kashmir, that the then ruler of Kashmir signed an "Instrument of Accession" with India, in exchange for military assistance.

ignoramous 7y ago

The Kashmir issue is an impasse. Neither will Pakistan relent its stake, nor will India relinquish its position any further and unfortunately the Kashmiris aren't going to get their freedom from either of these nuclear superpowers, at least not without a lot of pain (they have been subject to too much, already). The blood-shed and injustice is simply not fair, and it can't go on forever. Despite autonomy granted by Pakistan to mountainous region of Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, they have allowed settlement of Pakistanis from other parts of the country diluting the native population. Though revenue and governance is legally kept aloof from Islamabad, the overarching influence of the occupiers cannot be understated. Pakistani administered Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, for all intents and purposes, is a fully integrated territory. The Pakistani constitution doesn't allot right to independence and pro-independence political parties aren't allowed to contest elections. 'Azad Kashmir', as Pakistani administered Kashmir is commonly known, is a misnomer. India, in comparison, had afforded more political and legal leeway to the Jammu and Kashmir apparatus. They curbed down on it heavily after the insurgency of millitants in 1990s by slapping the territory with a god awful special powers military act viz. AFSPA. Since things aren't going to change in the short term, it completely makes sense for the Indian interests to begin to integrate Jammu and Kashmir along with adjoining buddhist regions of Leh and Ladakh into the constitution. The protests from Kashmiris are valid, justified, and correct; but I can't see India backing down from this. They need to stabilise the region than leave it in a perennial limbo flanked by oppressive and terrible military control on one side and the insurgent, violent struggle on the other. It is sad that erstwhile Indian PM, Morarji Desai and the then Pakistani President, Zia ul Haq couldn't put this issue to bed in 1980s when they had the chance. It will take leaders of incredible will, power, audacity, and sway on both sides of the border to bring this issue to bed for once and for all: Allegories will be written, songs will be sung, statues will be built, and peace will return to this beautiful land. Someday. The Kashmiris deserve it. Refs: https://rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11spec.htm https://rediff.com/news/2001/jul/11spec.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_(Special_Powers)_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_(Special_Powers)_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_mediation_of_the_Kashmir_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_mediation_of_the_Kashmir_di... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_(princely_state) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_(princely_st... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir

m0llusk 7y ago

Liberties are certainly an issue. By shutting down media and networks people are being stripped of their visibility. This is being done to avoid responsibility for currently actions being taken. Not being able to openly discuss what you are doing is a clear sign you shouldn't be doing that.

chewbacha 7y ago
Wouldn’t freedom of assembly, speech, and press be grouped into liberties?
- m0llusk 7y ago
  Yes, but simply being visible is even more basic. Rendering someone invisible is an attack upon their person that goes beyond limiting their liberty.

fromreddit 7y ago

Some relevant Wikipedia links 1- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya 2 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_places_of_worship_into_mosques https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_pl... 3 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazwa-e-Hind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazwa-e-Hind 4 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya 5 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal 6 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam) 7 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement 8 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus 9 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_India_with_a_Thousand_Cuts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleed_India_with_a_Thousand_... 10 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_explo... 11 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Relationship_with_Muhammad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Relationship_with_Muha... 12 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam Please read all of these wiki links in detail and think about each of them. I have not put any news/oped/ links. Nor am I putting anything of my own. The western world needs to know what is coming for them, I am not saying that what is coming for them is good or bad, but it's coming.

whydoyoucare 7y ago

Unfortunately, the issue requires a significant historical context, which is carefully stripped from most of these media articles to control the narrative. :-/

icsllaf 7y ago
Do you really need context when a country is stripping its citizens of the right of communication, movement, and religion?
- andonisus 7y ago
  Yes?
  - icsllaf 7y ago
    I disagree and say that when human rights are removed, it doesn't matter what the context is. 1. Terrorists deserve the same human rights as normal people. 2. The removal of liberties is extended upon all citizens making this province an open air jail. The fact that the situation in Kashmir changed so rapidly as well doesn't bode well for the reasoning behind this crackdown as well.
    - andonisus 7y ago
      The question was not if having context justifies the action, but rather if having context helps better understand the reasons this happened.
- awadheshv 7y ago
  Is it justified to temporarily suspend rights/privileges of 100 people to stop some 2 people from creating a situation where 2 other people lose their lives? kashmir has been a breeding ground for islamic terrorists from quite some time now. some consider it an achievement that there has not been any loss of life (as a result of recent restrictions). there are vested political interest at work from all sides involved and nobody cares about anybodys rights.

InfinityByTen 7y ago

BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. Also clips from within Kashmir valley have no evidence of protest against the revoked bills, rather a generic call for "Azadi"(Freedom). It is not clear if the protest is representation of ground reality.[Reference sadly only in Hindi, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV5w1BQCzi0] Also the other protest accepted by India could be a different one altogether, hence pictured differently and was possibly an actual one which happened days after BBC released their video. Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech. The region has been constitutionally provided for a democratic government, despite the split. This piece of information somehow passes through the crevices of fractured media into oblivion. China and Pakistan's stance is understandable since it is also a measure to tackle the Roadway China has been building through Pakistan to reach the ports and open up its trade routes. All of this with a funding of terrorism and extremism.

unmole 7y ago
> BBC and Al-Jazeera are alleged to have used footage from inside POK and claiming it as from Srinagar. This is bullshit. Even the Home Ministry has walked back from the There were no protests line. Source: https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/08/14/the-truth-about-bbc-al-jazeera-reuters-reports-of-unrest-in-soura-kashmir https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/08/14/the-truth-about-bbc-a...
- InfinityByTen 7y ago
  Guess you were too busy with your opinionated columns to look at the video marked as a reference.
ignoramous 7y ago
I think you would agree that you're assessing the situation with a whole lot of bias. > Lockdown in a terrorist, separatist and rebel location is a security measure more than a curbing of Freedom of speech This is harsh. One could equally argue that the Hindustani and Pakistani governments are terrorizing the Kashmir valley, with their security measures and counter-measures. There's more to this issue than misplaced nationalism with countless layers and nuances, though, I agree it is in India's interest to deal with the Kashmir dispute in a way it sees fit and call it a day, since the agreed plebiscite isn't acceptable to it, at all.

fromreddit 7y ago

Why did my comment get flagged? All I did was paste Wikipedia links. Not even a news/ not even my any statement. Is Wikipedia also a being considered a bait?

gfgvybhfft 7y ago

Western double standards at play again. There were more than 50k people died because of Pakistan sponsored and controlled terrorism in India. Native populations of Kashmiri Pandits have been cleansed out because of their religion. Kashmir was an integral part of India and will remain so.