5 ms·

This sounds very familiar. A lot of companies are full of people who have no curiosity and no ability to think for themselves. I have seen it multiple times whe

This sounds very familiar. A lot of companies are full of people who have no curiosity and no ability to think for themselves. I have seen it multiple times where someone claimed a change is impossible or takes insane effort. Then you have someone competent look at it and you have a solution in an hour. I think stuff likes this is the real price of not hiring really good people.

bjoli 7y ago
I had the same thing happen to me lately, but I was at the stupid end. I am not a programmer by profession, so it matters very little to me, but I had been struggling to produce a correct solution to a seemingly simple problem (writing a macro to allow definitions in expression context in r6rs scheme). My solution worked but had the side-effect rewriting obviously bad syntax into correct one and not in a good way. I was struggling with how to do it correctly, and then one of the people in the r7rs working group simplified the problem by a very large factor by pointing out to me that I was trying to solve a non-existant problem, because I tried to add definitions to expression contexts where it simply made no sense. In fact, instead of supporting all forms, I could get a better result by just focusing on one of them and add simple wrappers for another 5. It was all quite humbling. Had I taken a step back and actually analyzed the problem I would have come to the same solution, but I immediately tried the, to me, most obvious and also hard-to-get-right solution.
- ajna91 7y ago
  A very humane telling of a humbling experience.
- trilila 7y ago
  Great engineers learn from mistakes, and it seems like you did. Formal training or not, we all make mistakes, but indeed a good approach is to take a step back and analyse _any_ issue or complex problem before implementing it. Sometimes prototyping separate from the main codebase helps.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Such dumbness is very common with me too, and yet I also call myself a great problem solver, for good reason too. It's not a paradox, it's a matter if excess focus - once I get into a rut I just keep bulldozing[0], but coming to a problem fresh it's often trivial because the rut hasn't formed. I'd say it gets better with experience, and you're probably better than you think - my guess is you don't see your successes as clearly as your failures. I guess you spend so much time on the failures, but if you instantly perceive the right approach to a hard problem and solve it in a shot, well, it wasn't a hard problem, right? A kind of bias of perception. [0]I get the impression that's a bit of a man thing generally
- namibj 7y ago
  This is what pair programming fixes, among other things. You have someone who can literally take a step back to get a broader overview. It's quite nice from what I can tell (I do want to do more of it, but at work we don't have the problems that make the most fun with pair programming, and for side projects I lack friends who are willing and able to grasp the math behind it (nothing extreme, just on the level/around pose reconstruction and some simple (linear core) optimizations intertwined with (photogrammetry) domain specific data shuffling).
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  You had trouble writing a scheme macro? I think most pro software developers would struggle to! I don’t think this is dumb.
  - bjoli 7y ago
    I do not have any problems writing macros (in fact, I recently finished my guile scheme version of rackets for loops) It is just that the macro I wrote did a lot more work than it had to, and led to weird syntax behaviour. I didn't delimit what I was trying to do. John over in #guile put me on the right track.
    - quickthrower2 7y ago
      I didn’t mean to imply you had trouble writing all macros. But as someone who is trying to learn some c-lisp on the side I can see why they can get a lot more tricky than “regular” coding that one might do say in Java. So the point is you are probably doing something more advanced there.
dusted 7y ago
Unfortunately, there simply are not enough "really good" people around, so they'll have to make do with the likes of me ;-)
- Piskvorrr 7y ago
  Oh, don't worry. If I'm capable of improving, so are you ;)
deathanatos 7y ago
I worked with one of these once. Incredibly frustrating. You could propose a change that would have massive impact on the maintainability and readability of the codebase. "But how can you know if it will work?" Like, we tested it. We used our brains to evaluate potential likely side-effects and vetted the relevant portions of the code. We ran in it development environments for a month. I am not some junior dev trying to fix the world, I am arguing what I believe to be a pragmatic, narrowly-targeted, risk-balanced change with positive expected outcome. But that wouldn't satisfy him, it had to be completely risk-free. (And if things did go wrong, we had pretty much the ultimate backup plan: revert!) It gradually dawned on me that his own code (which I thought was generally low quality) did generally reflect his values here: it was write-once. Any subsequent change just layer on and patched around. > I think stuff likes this is the real price of not hiring really good people. Yup. And I still am not sure I'm good enough to tell them apart in hiring without asking questions that the candidate will just tell you what you want to hear.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Sean1708 7y ago
What I see far more often is people who think they're competent coming along and giving you a solution in an hour. What they don't tell you is that their solution assumes that everything works the way they think it does, and when it inevitably doesn't it takes another 5 people 5 weeks to design and implement a decent solution that actually works. But of course by this time the original rockstar has pissed off to something new and doesn't need to clean up their own mess. I'm not bitter at all...
Frost1x 7y ago
All problems are easy when you already have the solution or pieces to build the solution. Real world problems vary wildly and you may find someone who can solve one problem trivially while they struggle on something else that seems simple. This condescending perspective on problem solving is part of the problem with this entire industry and ultimately turns people into tools for disposal by businesses.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I didn’t want to be condescending although my comment sounds like that. Usually I give people the benefit of doubt but I just see a lot of people who are really not interested in the job. This seems to happen a lot when a lot of stuff is outsourced so no one is owning anything. People who want to solve problems usually leave and you are left with paper pushers who schedule a lot of meetings and offshore developers who don’t know anything about the history of the project.
johnchristopher 7y ago
I have been `the competent guy` this week. It took me two years to realize how deep the willingness to do nothing is for the IT guys here. I arrived as usual in the morning last week. An employee told me the notification system was broken and wouldn't be fixed before next year. I told her I would implement a fix before the end of the day. I got it done. The IT guy still has his public servant job and I am told to write a note to justify the implementation of the fix (I am not a public servant and not a contractor, I work for a private public LLC that is managed by a regional authority).
dec0dedab0de 7y ago
I think stuff likes this is the real price of not hiring really good people. I think stuff like this is why decent developers don't become "really good" when working in these environments. If you have a culture of letting people figure things out, and forgiving mistakes, then you'll end up with better engineers. On the other hand if you have a culture of protecting "territory", and blame then you'll get 6 months for 9 people to check a box.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  “I think stuff like this is why decent developers don't become "really good" when working in these environments” Totally agree. I feel bad for a lot of the young devs who are exposed to daily micromanagement and stand ups and the pressure to constantly deliver something. They don’t get the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them.
- nlawalker 7y ago
  I think it's less about forgiving mistakes than it is about having the ability to recognize the nature and scale of problems and distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate potential solutions. That ability gets lost in layers of management, and the people who are tasked with rewarding the folks that actually create the solutions often don't have it.
Spivak 7y ago
But this fix only (probably) works by accident. The problem is that flipping the switch makes the error go away in this system but ignores all the work of combing over the rest of the consumers of these documents to make sure they aren't subtly relying on the fact that the system was returning OrderedJSON instead of JSON.

bjoli 7y ago

I had the same thing happen to me lately, but I was at the stupid end. I am not a programmer by profession, so it matters very little to me, but I had been struggling to produce a correct solution to a seemingly simple problem (writing a macro to allow definitions in expression context in r6rs scheme). My solution worked but had the side-effect rewriting obviously bad syntax into correct one and not in a good way. I was struggling with how to do it correctly, and then one of the people in the r7rs working group simplified the problem by a very large factor by pointing out to me that I was trying to solve a non-existant problem, because I tried to add definitions to expression contexts where it simply made no sense. In fact, instead of supporting all forms, I could get a better result by just focusing on one of them and add simple wrappers for another 5. It was all quite humbling. Had I taken a step back and actually analyzed the problem I would have come to the same solution, but I immediately tried the, to me, most obvious and also hard-to-get-right solution.

ajna91 7y ago
A very humane telling of a humbling experience.
trilila 7y ago
Great engineers learn from mistakes, and it seems like you did. Formal training or not, we all make mistakes, but indeed a good approach is to take a step back and analyse _any_ issue or complex problem before implementing it. Sometimes prototyping separate from the main codebase helps.
tempguy9999 7y ago
Such dumbness is very common with me too, and yet I also call myself a great problem solver, for good reason too. It's not a paradox, it's a matter if excess focus - once I get into a rut I just keep bulldozing[0], but coming to a problem fresh it's often trivial because the rut hasn't formed. I'd say it gets better with experience, and you're probably better than you think - my guess is you don't see your successes as clearly as your failures. I guess you spend so much time on the failures, but if you instantly perceive the right approach to a hard problem and solve it in a shot, well, it wasn't a hard problem, right? A kind of bias of perception. [0]I get the impression that's a bit of a man thing generally
namibj 7y ago
This is what pair programming fixes, among other things. You have someone who can literally take a step back to get a broader overview. It's quite nice from what I can tell (I do want to do more of it, but at work we don't have the problems that make the most fun with pair programming, and for side projects I lack friends who are willing and able to grasp the math behind it (nothing extreme, just on the level/around pose reconstruction and some simple (linear core) optimizations intertwined with (photogrammetry) domain specific data shuffling).
quickthrower2 7y ago
You had trouble writing a scheme macro? I think most pro software developers would struggle to! I don’t think this is dumb.
- bjoli 7y ago
  I do not have any problems writing macros (in fact, I recently finished my guile scheme version of rackets for loops) It is just that the macro I wrote did a lot more work than it had to, and led to weird syntax behaviour. I didn't delimit what I was trying to do. John over in #guile put me on the right track.
  - quickthrower2 7y ago
    I didn’t mean to imply you had trouble writing all macros. But as someone who is trying to learn some c-lisp on the side I can see why they can get a lot more tricky than “regular” coding that one might do say in Java. So the point is you are probably doing something more advanced there.

dusted 7y ago

Unfortunately, there simply are not enough "really good" people around, so they'll have to make do with the likes of me ;-)

Piskvorrr 7y ago
Oh, don't worry. If I'm capable of improving, so are you ;)

deathanatos 7y ago

I worked with one of these once. Incredibly frustrating. You could propose a change that would have massive impact on the maintainability and readability of the codebase. "But how can you know if it will work?" Like, we tested it. We used our brains to evaluate potential likely side-effects and vetted the relevant portions of the code. We ran in it development environments for a month. I am not some junior dev trying to fix the world, I am arguing what I believe to be a pragmatic, narrowly-targeted, risk-balanced change with positive expected outcome. But that wouldn't satisfy him, it had to be completely risk-free. (And if things did go wrong, we had pretty much the ultimate backup plan: revert!) It gradually dawned on me that his own code (which I thought was generally low quality) did generally reflect his values here: it was write-once. Any subsequent change just layer on and patched around. > I think stuff likes this is the real price of not hiring really good people. Yup. And I still am not sure I'm good enough to tell them apart in hiring without asking questions that the candidate will just tell you what you want to hear.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Sean1708 7y ago

What I see far more often is people who think they're competent coming along and giving you a solution in an hour. What they don't tell you is that their solution assumes that everything works the way they think it does, and when it inevitably doesn't it takes another 5 people 5 weeks to design and implement a decent solution that actually works. But of course by this time the original rockstar has pissed off to something new and doesn't need to clean up their own mess. I'm not bitter at all...

Frost1x 7y ago

All problems are easy when you already have the solution or pieces to build the solution. Real world problems vary wildly and you may find someone who can solve one problem trivially while they struggle on something else that seems simple. This condescending perspective on problem solving is part of the problem with this entire industry and ultimately turns people into tools for disposal by businesses.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I didn’t want to be condescending although my comment sounds like that. Usually I give people the benefit of doubt but I just see a lot of people who are really not interested in the job. This seems to happen a lot when a lot of stuff is outsourced so no one is owning anything. People who want to solve problems usually leave and you are left with paper pushers who schedule a lot of meetings and offshore developers who don’t know anything about the history of the project.

johnchristopher 7y ago

I have been `the competent guy` this week. It took me two years to realize how deep the willingness to do nothing is for the IT guys here. I arrived as usual in the morning last week. An employee told me the notification system was broken and wouldn't be fixed before next year. I told her I would implement a fix before the end of the day. I got it done. The IT guy still has his public servant job and I am told to write a note to justify the implementation of the fix (I am not a public servant and not a contractor, I work for a private public LLC that is managed by a regional authority).

dec0dedab0de 7y ago

I think stuff likes this is the real price of not hiring really good people. I think stuff like this is why decent developers don't become "really good" when working in these environments. If you have a culture of letting people figure things out, and forgiving mistakes, then you'll end up with better engineers. On the other hand if you have a culture of protecting "territory", and blame then you'll get 6 months for 9 people to check a box.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
“I think stuff like this is why decent developers don't become "really good" when working in these environments” Totally agree. I feel bad for a lot of the young devs who are exposed to daily micromanagement and stand ups and the pressure to constantly deliver something. They don’t get the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them.
nlawalker 7y ago
I think it's less about forgiving mistakes than it is about having the ability to recognize the nature and scale of problems and distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate potential solutions. That ability gets lost in layers of management, and the people who are tasked with rewarding the folks that actually create the solutions often don't have it.

Spivak 7y ago

But this fix only (probably) works by accident. The problem is that flipping the switch makes the error go away in this system but ignores all the work of combing over the rest of the consumers of these documents to make sure they aren't subtly relying on the fact that the system was returning OrderedJSON instead of JSON.