4 ms·

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpet

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination. Yes, everyone "should" have a trusted network like you say, but that only works if you're a bit flexible about what you work on or where. If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires. That's how I found myself in front of a whiteboard at 52. It worked out for me, but what if it hadn't? I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise. I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination. It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews.

scarface74 7y ago
You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination. It’s not age discrimination. There is nothing stopping anyone at any age from studying “Cracking the Code”, going on the various leetCode sites and practicing. If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires. In that case, you do what it takes. I said below that because of $bad_decisions, I found myself at 35 only qualified for mid level roles. 8 years later after following my own advice - job hopping, networking, Resume Driven Development, etc., I found myself reaching close to the maximum salary I could reasonable get as a developer/team lead/architect in my local market. I don’t have to learn LeetCode to qualify for the next level, but I have spent the last two years immersing myself into all things AWS and cloud development/dev ops and project management so I could qualify to be an overpriced consultant. If I wanted to move to the west coast and work for a FAANG, I would have spent the last year or two preparing for that instead. I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise. And the poster can make the decision. If he wants to play that game, he has to train for it. Don’t say you want to run a marathon and not be willing to put in the training and then complain about it. I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination. I’m a 45 year old Black guy from a small town in the south. Trust me,I’m not part of any “old boys club” by nature of any innate “privilege”. It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews If their priority is to work for companies that require hard whiteboard interviews so they can earn $300K+ instead of being a bog standard Yet another software as a service full stack CRUD senior engineer where they can earn $130K - $160K in many major US cities, don’t complain that they have to put in the work. I’ve had to put in the work to be qualified for the next level after my youngest graduates. I don’t want the travel requirements right now.
- notacoward 7y ago
  > don’t complain that they have to put in the work This isn't about whether people are willing to do the work. It's about whether they have to do the same amount of work and whether their performance is measured the same way. If not, that's discrimination. People who want to run a marathon should have to do the work, but they shouldn't have to wear weights on their ankles while others don't. As I said, it didn't stop me personally. But I know others who also did the work and got the short end of that effort/reward disparity. That doesn't mean they were wrong for trying. Your choices might be right for you or they might be mere "sour grapes" rationalization. I don't know and I don't care, but they can't and shouldn't be projected onto others. Discrimination is discrimination even when it doesn't affect you.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Say I wanted to be a modern web developer and that I spent 10 years maintaining an old ASP.Net WebForms app. Would it be “discrimination” if I had to spend a year learning the modern $cool_kids stack to be competitive with younger developers who may have learned everything in a boot camp? Was it “discrimination” that I had to spend six months to be competitive in 2008 after being at the same company for a decade writing VB6 apps and writing programs in C++ with MFC/DCOM? What about the six months in 1999 I spent playing around with C++/MFC because I spent the first three years of my career writing C and FORTRAN on DEC VAX and Stratus VOS mainframes? If you want to stay an active software developer you have to always be learning to stay competitive.
    - notacoward 7y ago
      No, those don't sound like discrimination. Discrimination would be if you spent that year learning the material then went into the interview and they gave you a problem that was utterly irrelevant but more familiar to those bootcamp kids. Or if they gave you a relevant problem and you solved it fine using an obvious-seeming algorithm you learned ten years ago, then got "corrected" because everyone uses a different algorithm nowadays. Maybe even an algorithm that's objectively worse for that particular case, but arguing the point would only cost you more points. Those are things I've seen happen. As I suspect you know, discrimination rarely declares itself. It's usually subtle, sometimes even unconscious, but often it's still there. "I didn't care so I didn't try so I have no direct experience" is not a good argument for dismissing others' choices as inferior or their experiences as insignificant.

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination. Yes, everyone "should" have a trusted network like you say, but that only works if you're a bit flexible about what you work on or where. If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires. That's how I found myself in front of a whiteboard at 52. It worked out for me, but what if it hadn't? I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise. I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination. It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews.

scarface74 7y ago

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination. It’s not age discrimination. There is nothing stopping anyone at any age from studying “Cracking the Code”, going on the various leetCode sites and practicing. If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires. In that case, you do what it takes. I said below that because of $bad_decisions, I found myself at 35 only qualified for mid level roles. 8 years later after following my own advice - job hopping, networking, Resume Driven Development, etc., I found myself reaching close to the maximum salary I could reasonable get as a developer/team lead/architect in my local market. I don’t have to learn LeetCode to qualify for the next level, but I have spent the last two years immersing myself into all things AWS and cloud development/dev ops and project management so I could qualify to be an overpriced consultant. If I wanted to move to the west coast and work for a FAANG, I would have spent the last year or two preparing for that instead. I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise. And the poster can make the decision. If he wants to play that game, he has to train for it. Don’t say you want to run a marathon and not be willing to put in the training and then complain about it. I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination. I’m a 45 year old Black guy from a small town in the south. Trust me,I’m not part of any “old boys club” by nature of any innate “privilege”. It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews If their priority is to work for companies that require hard whiteboard interviews so they can earn $300K+ instead of being a bog standard Yet another software as a service full stack CRUD senior engineer where they can earn $130K - $160K in many major US cities, don’t complain that they have to put in the work. I’ve had to put in the work to be qualified for the next level after my youngest graduates. I don’t want the travel requirements right now.

notacoward 7y ago
> don’t complain that they have to put in the work This isn't about whether people are willing to do the work. It's about whether they have to do the same amount of work and whether their performance is measured the same way. If not, that's discrimination. People who want to run a marathon should have to do the work, but they shouldn't have to wear weights on their ankles while others don't. As I said, it didn't stop me personally. But I know others who also did the work and got the short end of that effort/reward disparity. That doesn't mean they were wrong for trying. Your choices might be right for you or they might be mere "sour grapes" rationalization. I don't know and I don't care, but they can't and shouldn't be projected onto others. Discrimination is discrimination even when it doesn't affect you.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Say I wanted to be a modern web developer and that I spent 10 years maintaining an old ASP.Net WebForms app. Would it be “discrimination” if I had to spend a year learning the modern $cool_kids stack to be competitive with younger developers who may have learned everything in a boot camp? Was it “discrimination” that I had to spend six months to be competitive in 2008 after being at the same company for a decade writing VB6 apps and writing programs in C++ with MFC/DCOM? What about the six months in 1999 I spent playing around with C++/MFC because I spent the first three years of my career writing C and FORTRAN on DEC VAX and Stratus VOS mainframes? If you want to stay an active software developer you have to always be learning to stay competitive.
  - notacoward 7y ago
    No, those don't sound like discrimination. Discrimination would be if you spent that year learning the material then went into the interview and they gave you a problem that was utterly irrelevant but more familiar to those bootcamp kids. Or if they gave you a relevant problem and you solved it fine using an obvious-seeming algorithm you learned ten years ago, then got "corrected" because everyone uses a different algorithm nowadays. Maybe even an algorithm that's objectively worse for that particular case, but arguing the point would only cost you more points. Those are things I've seen happen. As I suspect you know, discrimination rarely declares itself. It's usually subtle, sometimes even unconscious, but often it's still there. "I didn't care so I didn't try so I have no direct experience" is not a good argument for dismissing others' choices as inferior or their experiences as insignificant.