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> When a doctor interviews for a job, they don't ask the doctor to perform six surgeries in a day for free and then say, "we'll get back to you"...have intervie

> When a doctor interviews for a job, they don't ask the doctor to perform six surgeries in a day for free and then say, "we'll get back to you"...have interviewed countless "senior engineers" with degrees from well regarded universities who couldn't write a simple loop. I think this is fundamental to the discussion. Are we really sure they couldn't write a simple loop, or were there other factors that prevented them from doing so? For comparison with your other analogy, keep in mind that even surgeons who have amputated the wrong limb are defended by their colleagues, saying “Well, it should have been amputated anyway.” (https://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/17/us/doctor-who-cut-off-wrong-leg-is-defended-by-colleagues.html https://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/17/us/doctor-who-cut-off-wro...) I understand that you specifically might not have used that as your only filter, but a lot of people do – and I think a more holistic approach that takes into account education, training so far, and overall experience with tech. Certifications might be one part of this too.

pbalau 7y ago
> Are we really sure they couldn't write a simple loop, or were there other factors that prevented them from doing so? what's the difference? I believe that getting hired by a company is the easiest thing you will have to do for that company. I believe that if you can't perform a basic task at interview time, you should not be working there. Either because you can't perform. Or The mood is not right for you. If this is the case, why would you want to work there anyway? I see so many people that thing getting hired is the end goal. Mate, you still have to work for them. Those people that can bullshit their way through a job, have no issues getting hired to begin with.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "I believe that getting hired by a company is the easiest thing you will have to do for that company." That doesn't describe any of the five job offers I've taken since college. Well, maybe the case where I was rehired.
jedberg 7y ago
> Are we really sure they couldn't write a simple loop I mean I suppose the stress under pressure could have made them forget the loop syntax in their favorite language, but that is unlikely. I literally asked them to implement FizzBuzz in their favorite language during a phone screen where they even had internet access to look up syntax. But since I was interviewing them for an SRE job, coding under pressure is actually part of the job anyway. Regardless, I'd expect someone who claims to have 3+ years of Python experience to be able to write a python loop.
- sixothree 7y ago
  I am a developer, not HR. But I do play a role in hiring. We already have an "aptitude" style test, and an SQL test. So I wanted to make my addition to be limited to 15 minutes. I ask candidates to write Fizz Buzz but with the addition writing at the end the average of Fizz, average of Buzz, and average of FizzBuzz. Pretty much every candidate has "failed" the test. More than half have something incorrect or not quite matching the instructions. But we have hired some of those people and they are great programmers. It actually does give a surprising insight into the developer's style. It's not pleasant to see all of their code stuffed into main(). It's not pleasant to see every single line of code commented. But it is refreshing to see Enumerable.Range(1, 100) instead of C style for loop.
  - mjevans 7y ago
    I could do that on a whiteboard, in a notepad in psudeocode, and possibly for real in a language I'd recently used (so the syntax is in mind) and recognize the output is correct or needs a tweak or two... However I don't think I could do this at all over the phone. I'd also, for a throw away like this, knowing it's a throw away stuff everything in to main / global and use that c-style loop BECAUSE it's portable to literally every language. If you're looking for a FizzBuzz class/object/module specify that. If you've got a specific language with nice features ask for that, BUT don't demerit an individual too much for not knowing the day to day features of the coding environment in your company when they've not been part of it for months.

pbalau 7y ago

> Are we really sure they couldn't write a simple loop, or were there other factors that prevented them from doing so? what's the difference? I believe that getting hired by a company is the easiest thing you will have to do for that company. I believe that if you can't perform a basic task at interview time, you should not be working there. Either because you can't perform. Or The mood is not right for you. If this is the case, why would you want to work there anyway? I see so many people that thing getting hired is the end goal. Mate, you still have to work for them. Those people that can bullshit their way through a job, have no issues getting hired to begin with.

perl4ever 7y ago
"I believe that getting hired by a company is the easiest thing you will have to do for that company." That doesn't describe any of the five job offers I've taken since college. Well, maybe the case where I was rehired.

jedberg 7y ago

> Are we really sure they couldn't write a simple loop I mean I suppose the stress under pressure could have made them forget the loop syntax in their favorite language, but that is unlikely. I literally asked them to implement FizzBuzz in their favorite language during a phone screen where they even had internet access to look up syntax. But since I was interviewing them for an SRE job, coding under pressure is actually part of the job anyway. Regardless, I'd expect someone who claims to have 3+ years of Python experience to be able to write a python loop.

sixothree 7y ago
I am a developer, not HR. But I do play a role in hiring. We already have an "aptitude" style test, and an SQL test. So I wanted to make my addition to be limited to 15 minutes. I ask candidates to write Fizz Buzz but with the addition writing at the end the average of Fizz, average of Buzz, and average of FizzBuzz. Pretty much every candidate has "failed" the test. More than half have something incorrect or not quite matching the instructions. But we have hired some of those people and they are great programmers. It actually does give a surprising insight into the developer's style. It's not pleasant to see all of their code stuffed into main(). It's not pleasant to see every single line of code commented. But it is refreshing to see Enumerable.Range(1, 100) instead of C style for loop.
- mjevans 7y ago
  I could do that on a whiteboard, in a notepad in psudeocode, and possibly for real in a language I'd recently used (so the syntax is in mind) and recognize the output is correct or needs a tweak or two... However I don't think I could do this at all over the phone. I'd also, for a throw away like this, knowing it's a throw away stuff everything in to main / global and use that c-style loop BECAUSE it's portable to literally every language. If you're looking for a FizzBuzz class/object/module specify that. If you've got a specific language with nice features ask for that, BUT don't demerit an individual too much for not knowing the day to day features of the coding environment in your company when they've not been part of it for months.