10 ms·

> “I think it’s offensive and I don’t like how the industry has standardized on basically assuming everyone’s a bullshitter,” I think it's weird for people to

> “I think it’s offensive and I don’t like how the industry has standardized on basically assuming everyone’s a bullshitter,” I think it's weird for people to complain about whiteboards and technical questions, given the implied alternative. There are many other industries if you prefer the traditional hiring model. That is, if you can get an interview. While you complain about the awkwardness of a whiteboard, people in other industries are quite happy to get a call. And in the interview, they compete in terms of poise, diction, rapport, and other intangibles, without the chance to repair any lack thereof by demonstrating technical competence. And they get 1 hour to make their case, not 3-6 hours.

tamersalama 7y ago
There must exist a middle ground somewhere.
- justinmk 7y ago
  But we are not in an "extreme". All of the complaining is tiresome. Some companies have difficult interviews, many do not. Who cares?
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    All companies cargo-cult some version of this nonsense today.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      All? No.
      - mixmastamyk 7y ago
        I've not interviewed with one that didn't in almost ten years, possibly more.
        username90 7y ago
        Did you try to interview at companies paying $80k to senior engineers? Low status companies tend to have more normal interview processes, many don't even ask you to code before hiring you. This way you can get similar pay and interviewing as people get in other fields.
        mixmastamyk 7y ago
        Not a viable wage in Southern CA these days; have not seen an ad at that rate in any case. Guess the gist is that bottom of the barrel jobs have easier interviews. I could buy that.
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
I think it’s interesting when people characterize feedback about technical interview shortfalls as “complaining” ... reveals a lot of the pre-existing bias in this very contentious topic.
- MegaButts 7y ago
  The few times I have been able to get genuine feedback, I have always been incredibly grateful.
shados 7y ago
> That is, if you can get an interview That's a solid point. Yeah, engineering interviewing could be better, a lot better, but as we push to improve it, it's really important to keep in mind how privileged we are. I remember having a discussion with one of my friends in a different field who was thrilled to get a recruiter pinging them on Linkedin, for example. Also, given how chaotic the field is, and how people come from all sides (some with CS degrees, some self taught, some who worked at great tech companies, some who didn't, etc), assuming everyone's a bullshitter is unfortunately kind of expected. We absolutely should treat people with respect and dignity, but that doesn't mean being naive either. And in other fields getting fired and even demotions are pretty common, while in big tech hubs thats nearly unheard of, except for extreme cases or very very entry level people.
- avh02 7y ago
  "Engineering"
  - shados 7y ago
    Hah. Point taken.
    - avh02 7y ago
      Wasn't about you in particular to be honest (but I like how you owned it). Personally, my official position is "software engineer" and I hate it. We have nowhere near the culpability engineers in other disciplines do.
      - shados 7y ago
        Ironically it took me a while to even start using that terminology. Where I'm from, "engineer" means something specific, even in software, and you can't just call yourself an engineer (well, there's no LAW against it, but people will call bullshit pretty fast if you didn't go through the right channels). In the US, everyone's an engineer. Im surprised the person who serves me my burger at the counter isn't a Bovine Product Assembly Engineer.
RubenSandwich 7y ago
In other industries their past experience is also believed, rather then tested by random facts. I’ve had an interviewer ask me how to change Swift method names when exposing them to Objective C and then take that as an indicator of my whole iOS skill set.
- shados 7y ago
  Most fields where experience is "believed" fall in one of a couple of categories: 1) Extremely regulated fields with strict education, training and certification requirements (eg: a physician) 2) Fields where you have to show something. Designers frequently need to have extensive portfolios. Carpenters need both that and real world referrals of happy customers (not just nearly automated HR checks we have in software dev where no one will say anything bad out of fear of getting sued) 3) Trial period followed by sink or swim. Come work for us and if it doesn't work out we'll demote you or fire you. There's a few places like that (I think its Netflix's model?), but generally firing someone has everyone around calling foul.
  - colmvp 7y ago
    The trial period is not without its flaws but I’ve always preferred that over take home tests and puzzles because it gives both parties time to truly assess one another. I’ve done it twice in my career and I appreciated getting paid like a contractor and giving more time to understand whether or not I really fit at the company I was joining. Likewise, the company’s weren’t 100% assured that I was good but I was able to prove my value both times.
    - shados 7y ago
      I wouldn't deal with the contractor paperwork myself, but in at will employment states that's not even needed. Hire by W-2 and let go after a few months if it doesn't work out. Thats absolutely my personal preference. The argument against it (very valid), is that if someone with a family relying on their paycheck quits their job to go work at another with that policy, and gets let go after 3 months, they're kind of fucked.
  - 7y ago
civilian 7y ago
False dichotomy :) Just because something is different from the stupid option, doesn't make it a good option.
- nck4222 7y ago
  White boarding is the worst form of interviewing, except for all the other forms that have been tried.
SantalBlush 7y ago
>And in the interview, they compete in terms of poise, diction, rapport, and other intangibles Don't forget the interviewer's arbitrary "system" for weeding out applicants that has no basis in research and varies from one hiring manager to the next.
xamuel 7y ago
If you give someone gold long enough, eventually they'll complain how heavy and ugly gold is. Whiteboards are an unbelievable utopia compared to so many other disciplines. It's an amazing stroke of luck that software developers don't have to do medical-style "residencies". We don't have to rely on letters of recommendation from our professors (hope that professor you slaved away for for six years doesn't have a bad day when he writes your letter!) We don't have to pay thousands of dollars to take excruciating standardized tests to obtain certifications that expire in a decade. We don't have to do unpaid internships, we don't even have to wear business suits to the interview. Software devs don't realize how many people in the world would kill to have things as good as we have them.
- walshemj 7y ago
  A relatively badly paid and low status utopia at the same level of experience and you don't get pushed out at 45 as to old.
- gjm11 7y ago
  There's a lot of truth in that. But I'm not sure it's that developers are being given gold and don't recognize it. It's that developers are being given mud and recognize it, while most other people are being given shit instead. I'd rather be handed a pile of mud than a pile of shit, but it's not hard to feel that there must be some alternative that's better than either. (Maybe there isn't, though. Matching candidates to jobs is just hard, I think; everyone's incentives are misaligned, performance is difficult to predict, it's amazingly difficult to get past your initial snap judgements or even to realise that you're failing to do so, etc.)
  - lacker 7y ago
    Well, some developers feel like they are being given mud. But developers who are really good at whiteboard interviews feel like they are being given gold.
- suzzer99 7y ago
  I'd be thrilled with that. I've got a great resume, great references from former bosses, and have plenty enough confidence in my ability to work contract for a while to prove myself. The problem is those things only get you in the door, then it 100% comes down to your whiteboard under-fire skills - which admittedly have gotten worse for me the older I get. Although I know I'm a better programmer now.
tropicalia 7y ago
Without the chance to repair any lack thereof by demonstrating technical competence. As if it's a given the whiteboard process actually provides a useful measure of technical competence.
alkonaut 7y ago
The problem isn't technical interviews it's bad technical interviews. I think this is pretty "regional", with many people reporting big tech companies in e.g. the Bay Area doing things like have people code textbook algorithms on whiteboards. Technical interviews where you look at some code and review it, or is asked to broadly describe how to design a system etc isn't unreasonable, and as you say it's better than judging only on poise...

tamersalama 7y ago

There must exist a middle ground somewhere.

justinmk 7y ago
But we are not in an "extreme". All of the complaining is tiresome. Some companies have difficult interviews, many do not. Who cares?
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  All companies cargo-cult some version of this nonsense today.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    All? No.
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      I've not interviewed with one that didn't in almost ten years, possibly more.
      - username90 7y ago
        Did you try to interview at companies paying $80k to senior engineers? Low status companies tend to have more normal interview processes, many don't even ask you to code before hiring you. This way you can get similar pay and interviewing as people get in other fields.
        mixmastamyk 7y ago
        Not a viable wage in Southern CA these days; have not seen an ad at that rate in any case. Guess the gist is that bottom of the barrel jobs have easier interviews. I could buy that.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

I think it’s interesting when people characterize feedback about technical interview shortfalls as “complaining” ... reveals a lot of the pre-existing bias in this very contentious topic.

MegaButts 7y ago
The few times I have been able to get genuine feedback, I have always been incredibly grateful.

shados 7y ago

> That is, if you can get an interview That's a solid point. Yeah, engineering interviewing could be better, a lot better, but as we push to improve it, it's really important to keep in mind how privileged we are. I remember having a discussion with one of my friends in a different field who was thrilled to get a recruiter pinging them on Linkedin, for example. Also, given how chaotic the field is, and how people come from all sides (some with CS degrees, some self taught, some who worked at great tech companies, some who didn't, etc), assuming everyone's a bullshitter is unfortunately kind of expected. We absolutely should treat people with respect and dignity, but that doesn't mean being naive either. And in other fields getting fired and even demotions are pretty common, while in big tech hubs thats nearly unheard of, except for extreme cases or very very entry level people.

avh02 7y ago
"Engineering"
- shados 7y ago
  Hah. Point taken.
  - avh02 7y ago
    Wasn't about you in particular to be honest (but I like how you owned it). Personally, my official position is "software engineer" and I hate it. We have nowhere near the culpability engineers in other disciplines do.
    - shados 7y ago
      Ironically it took me a while to even start using that terminology. Where I'm from, "engineer" means something specific, even in software, and you can't just call yourself an engineer (well, there's no LAW against it, but people will call bullshit pretty fast if you didn't go through the right channels). In the US, everyone's an engineer. Im surprised the person who serves me my burger at the counter isn't a Bovine Product Assembly Engineer.

RubenSandwich 7y ago

In other industries their past experience is also believed, rather then tested by random facts. I’ve had an interviewer ask me how to change Swift method names when exposing them to Objective C and then take that as an indicator of my whole iOS skill set.

shados 7y ago
Most fields where experience is "believed" fall in one of a couple of categories: 1) Extremely regulated fields with strict education, training and certification requirements (eg: a physician) 2) Fields where you have to show something. Designers frequently need to have extensive portfolios. Carpenters need both that and real world referrals of happy customers (not just nearly automated HR checks we have in software dev where no one will say anything bad out of fear of getting sued) 3) Trial period followed by sink or swim. Come work for us and if it doesn't work out we'll demote you or fire you. There's a few places like that (I think its Netflix's model?), but generally firing someone has everyone around calling foul.
- colmvp 7y ago
  The trial period is not without its flaws but I’ve always preferred that over take home tests and puzzles because it gives both parties time to truly assess one another. I’ve done it twice in my career and I appreciated getting paid like a contractor and giving more time to understand whether or not I really fit at the company I was joining. Likewise, the company’s weren’t 100% assured that I was good but I was able to prove my value both times.
  - shados 7y ago
    I wouldn't deal with the contractor paperwork myself, but in at will employment states that's not even needed. Hire by W-2 and let go after a few months if it doesn't work out. Thats absolutely my personal preference. The argument against it (very valid), is that if someone with a family relying on their paycheck quits their job to go work at another with that policy, and gets let go after 3 months, they're kind of fucked.
- 7y ago

civilian 7y ago

False dichotomy :) Just because something is different from the stupid option, doesn't make it a good option.

nck4222 7y ago
White boarding is the worst form of interviewing, except for all the other forms that have been tried.

SantalBlush 7y ago

>And in the interview, they compete in terms of poise, diction, rapport, and other intangibles Don't forget the interviewer's arbitrary "system" for weeding out applicants that has no basis in research and varies from one hiring manager to the next.

xamuel 7y ago

If you give someone gold long enough, eventually they'll complain how heavy and ugly gold is. Whiteboards are an unbelievable utopia compared to so many other disciplines. It's an amazing stroke of luck that software developers don't have to do medical-style "residencies". We don't have to rely on letters of recommendation from our professors (hope that professor you slaved away for for six years doesn't have a bad day when he writes your letter!) We don't have to pay thousands of dollars to take excruciating standardized tests to obtain certifications that expire in a decade. We don't have to do unpaid internships, we don't even have to wear business suits to the interview. Software devs don't realize how many people in the world would kill to have things as good as we have them.

walshemj 7y ago
A relatively badly paid and low status utopia at the same level of experience and you don't get pushed out at 45 as to old.
gjm11 7y ago
There's a lot of truth in that. But I'm not sure it's that developers are being given gold and don't recognize it. It's that developers are being given mud and recognize it, while most other people are being given shit instead. I'd rather be handed a pile of mud than a pile of shit, but it's not hard to feel that there must be some alternative that's better than either. (Maybe there isn't, though. Matching candidates to jobs is just hard, I think; everyone's incentives are misaligned, performance is difficult to predict, it's amazingly difficult to get past your initial snap judgements or even to realise that you're failing to do so, etc.)
- lacker 7y ago
  Well, some developers feel like they are being given mud. But developers who are really good at whiteboard interviews feel like they are being given gold.
suzzer99 7y ago
I'd be thrilled with that. I've got a great resume, great references from former bosses, and have plenty enough confidence in my ability to work contract for a while to prove myself. The problem is those things only get you in the door, then it 100% comes down to your whiteboard under-fire skills - which admittedly have gotten worse for me the older I get. Although I know I'm a better programmer now.

tropicalia 7y ago

Without the chance to repair any lack thereof by demonstrating technical competence. As if it's a given the whiteboard process actually provides a useful measure of technical competence.

alkonaut 7y ago

The problem isn't technical interviews it's bad technical interviews. I think this is pretty "regional", with many people reporting big tech companies in e.g. the Bay Area doing things like have people code textbook algorithms on whiteboards. Technical interviews where you look at some code and review it, or is asked to broadly describe how to design a system etc isn't unreasonable, and as you say it's better than judging only on poise...