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We also should hold parents criminally responsible for their children's illegal behavior, at least until the kids move out. I think teachers must be fired if an

by e1g 7y ago

We also should hold parents criminally responsible for their children's illegal behavior, at least until the kids move out. I think teachers must be fired if any of their students cheat or get disciplined. I also vote that every general and the president should get be jailed when a soldier commits a crime.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
I think the principal of the school where there is widespread cheating among students, should get fired. In addition, commanders are disciplined if their is widespread war crimes by the soldiers under their command. In the case of the commander, ignorance would not be a defense.
- e1g 7y ago
  That's a great discount from "criminally responsible". Also, that is the current practice - managers and executives are judged and disciplined for failures of their staff (fraud, theft, CSR failures etc). These actions are not publicized because of optics, but the consequences are proportional to rank. You just don't see people complaining about this on Twitter, or going to the media with examples of consequences. Different rules.
sucrose 7y ago
If a student and teacher, parent and child, or a general/president and solider selfishly conspire for their own benefit, they should be dealt with.
neogodless 7y ago
There are reasons why this isn't a good analogy. You're talking about controlling human behavior with no alternative. In other words, as a parent or teacher, you do your best to teach and guide and give them direction and rules to follow, but they still might act outside of those boundaries. And these are children, who will try to be creative and go outside the lines, even if (and because!) it's against the rules. But when that happens, you can discipline, teach and talk. But you don't fire the student or your children. (You can, in extreme cases, expel a student from school. But you're even saying that any discipline should land on the teacher's shoulders!) A CEO is running an organization where everyone involved is in adult, likely vetted (interviews are really common), and if they make mistakes or choose to break the rules, it's perfectly OK to remove them from the organization entirely.
- e1g 7y ago
  "Criminally responsible". To clarify, my comparison is firmly connected to the request that the CEO is jailed for crimes of employees. Even a mid-sized company is a complex interconnected system with thousands of actors. The CEO can invest into training programs, external audits, training, and close supervision. But the amount of control the CEO has over an Accounts Payable employee is negligible. If the employee defrauds a customer by routing the payment to a personal account, should the CEO be sentenced? "Criminally responsible". No company has more control, rules, regulations, checks-and-balances, and power over their staff that the military has over a soldier. If we are not ready to sentence a General for failures of individual solders/actors, then we shouldn't impose higher standard on leaders in weaker positions.
  - abdullahkhalids 7y ago
    From this-thread OP > ... company wide illegal behavior. The behavior has to be systematic and a significant percentage of some subtype of employee (eg. salepersons) must be engaged in it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hammock 7y ago
  I felt sad when reading this comment. You are saying that children are "creative" and think "outside the lines," but once you're an adult you should follow directions or else be disciplined. A bit dystopian is this society you describe.
  - neogodless 7y ago
    I suppose we're getting off topic, but this side topic is really interesting to me. I read a lot of Sir Ken Robinson, so of course that colors my opinions. I'm not of the opinion that as an adult you should be disciplined for creativity, and I rebel against rules that don't fit my mental model of the big picture and the things that I value. But I do believe that in the work place, you are given direction and boundaries, and if you're going outside ethical boundaries or legal ones, then it makes sense that discipline or consequences come into play. (And I think there's a place to argue whether laws are right or need to be changed!)

by e1g 7y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

I think the principal of the school where there is widespread cheating among students, should get fired. In addition, commanders are disciplined if their is widespread war crimes by the soldiers under their command. In the case of the commander, ignorance would not be a defense.

e1g 7y ago
That's a great discount from "criminally responsible". Also, that is the current practice - managers and executives are judged and disciplined for failures of their staff (fraud, theft, CSR failures etc). These actions are not publicized because of optics, but the consequences are proportional to rank. You just don't see people complaining about this on Twitter, or going to the media with examples of consequences. Different rules.

sucrose 7y ago

If a student and teacher, parent and child, or a general/president and solider selfishly conspire for their own benefit, they should be dealt with.

neogodless 7y ago

There are reasons why this isn't a good analogy. You're talking about controlling human behavior with no alternative. In other words, as a parent or teacher, you do your best to teach and guide and give them direction and rules to follow, but they still might act outside of those boundaries. And these are children, who will try to be creative and go outside the lines, even if (and because!) it's against the rules. But when that happens, you can discipline, teach and talk. But you don't fire the student or your children. (You can, in extreme cases, expel a student from school. But you're even saying that any discipline should land on the teacher's shoulders!) A CEO is running an organization where everyone involved is in adult, likely vetted (interviews are really common), and if they make mistakes or choose to break the rules, it's perfectly OK to remove them from the organization entirely.

e1g 7y ago
"Criminally responsible". To clarify, my comparison is firmly connected to the request that the CEO is jailed for crimes of employees. Even a mid-sized company is a complex interconnected system with thousands of actors. The CEO can invest into training programs, external audits, training, and close supervision. But the amount of control the CEO has over an Accounts Payable employee is negligible. If the employee defrauds a customer by routing the payment to a personal account, should the CEO be sentenced? "Criminally responsible". No company has more control, rules, regulations, checks-and-balances, and power over their staff that the military has over a soldier. If we are not ready to sentence a General for failures of individual solders/actors, then we shouldn't impose higher standard on leaders in weaker positions.
- abdullahkhalids 7y ago
  From this-thread OP > ... company wide illegal behavior. The behavior has to be systematic and a significant percentage of some subtype of employee (eg. salepersons) must be engaged in it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hammock 7y ago
I felt sad when reading this comment. You are saying that children are "creative" and think "outside the lines," but once you're an adult you should follow directions or else be disciplined. A bit dystopian is this society you describe.
- neogodless 7y ago
  I suppose we're getting off topic, but this side topic is really interesting to me. I read a lot of Sir Ken Robinson, so of course that colors my opinions. I'm not of the opinion that as an adult you should be disciplined for creativity, and I rebel against rules that don't fit my mental model of the big picture and the things that I value. But I do believe that in the work place, you are given direction and boundaries, and if you're going outside ethical boundaries or legal ones, then it makes sense that discipline or consequences come into play. (And I think there's a place to argue whether laws are right or need to be changed!)