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Here's what Cloudflare's CEO wrote on their blog: "In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is

by kd3 7y ago

Here's what Cloudflare's CEO wrote on their blog: "In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence." Monitoring?? Sounds a lot like surveillance and spying to me. This is why they want to MITM the entire Internet. All encryption becomes useless. Breaking privacy and security just like Facebook. They even co-opted Wireguard recently. If you understand and see where this is going, stay away from them.

kd3 7y ago
No wonder lots of it is free. You are the product, including your users.
_bxg1 7y ago
They specifically talk about violence. Intent to incite violence isn't protected under the first amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_...
- kd3 7y ago
  Yeah that is where it always starts. Think of the children. Childporn. Terrorism. Until it becomes "hate speech" and whatever else the masters dictate.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    Advocation of violence has been unprotected speech since 1940. Have we been living in a dystopia this whole time? People who intentionally oversimplify free-speech endanger it, just like people who intentionally oversimplify capitalism endanger it. There is no hardline ideal, in any context, that works. Ideas must be flexible to the real world, or perish.
    - henryfjordan 7y ago
      It's not that hate speech and violent rhetoric should be tolerated, it's that using the fact that some people say bad things does not justify monitoring all of the internet. Free speech is a right in the US and having an overlord listening to everything you say is obviously dampening on that right.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        I think whether "hate speech" falls into that category is a more complicated question, mostly because the term can be applied so broadly, but a handful of specific things have been illegal enough to get pulled from the public internet by law enforcement from the beginning, and I think it's naive to suggest that we don't need a category like that at all. Also, it doesn't require man-in-the-middle attacks or weakening of encryption to find public websites that host illegal content.
        henryfjordan 7y ago
        That's fair, it would be very easy and appropriate for someone to monitor HN for example. I don't think the worry is that Cloudflare is helping police public websites, it's that they have the ability to police private ones that use their services. Their stance of proactively helping to police sites (instead of merely responding to warrants) makes the slope they are on very slippery. Would they be willing to decrypt traffic from a certain IP address to a private site if that same IP was used to post something violent on 8chan? Is that acceptable? Those are tough questions for sure, and ones best decided by a judge and not someone in the private sector.
        kd3 7y ago
        Not only that but it looks more like they intend to actively monitor traffic in real time to check for things that are problematic according to them and their friends. And people need to realize this is not just for https traffic but also Ipfs and Wireguard. I'm sure it won't stop there either. Defeats the whole point of those technologies to have Cloudflare spying in the middle. This is China 2.0.
zemo 7y ago
> All encryption becomes useless. if you're gonna conspiracy theorize at least go the whole mile. They provide SSL termination so the encryption is useful to them because it gives them a monopoly on the surveillance apparatus. Not useless at all, it guarantees their position in the ecosystem.
rossdavidh 7y ago
While I agree there is a risk, I think a lot of their free customers would either not be using SSL at all, or else would find it too complex to remain independent and just have a Facebook page instead, if Cloudflare didn't make that kind of thing easier. Neither seems like it would be better. Not to mention things like being able to resist a DDOS from anyone who dislikes you. Sure, there may be some people using Cloudflare free services who would otherwise be doing it themselves, but I think by far the greater majority of their non-paying users are folks too small and/or non-technical to maintain their own site otherwise.
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  I don’t think non-technical people will be using CF directly. More like WiX GoDaddy etc.

by kd3 7y ago

kd3 7y ago

No wonder lots of it is free. You are the product, including your users.

_bxg1 7y ago

They specifically talk about violence. Intent to incite violence isn't protected under the first amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_...

kd3 7y ago
Yeah that is where it always starts. Think of the children. Childporn. Terrorism. Until it becomes "hate speech" and whatever else the masters dictate.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Advocation of violence has been unprotected speech since 1940. Have we been living in a dystopia this whole time? People who intentionally oversimplify free-speech endanger it, just like people who intentionally oversimplify capitalism endanger it. There is no hardline ideal, in any context, that works. Ideas must be flexible to the real world, or perish.
  - henryfjordan 7y ago
    It's not that hate speech and violent rhetoric should be tolerated, it's that using the fact that some people say bad things does not justify monitoring all of the internet. Free speech is a right in the US and having an overlord listening to everything you say is obviously dampening on that right.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      I think whether "hate speech" falls into that category is a more complicated question, mostly because the term can be applied so broadly, but a handful of specific things have been illegal enough to get pulled from the public internet by law enforcement from the beginning, and I think it's naive to suggest that we don't need a category like that at all. Also, it doesn't require man-in-the-middle attacks or weakening of encryption to find public websites that host illegal content.
      - henryfjordan 7y ago
        That's fair, it would be very easy and appropriate for someone to monitor HN for example. I don't think the worry is that Cloudflare is helping police public websites, it's that they have the ability to police private ones that use their services. Their stance of proactively helping to police sites (instead of merely responding to warrants) makes the slope they are on very slippery. Would they be willing to decrypt traffic from a certain IP address to a private site if that same IP was used to post something violent on 8chan? Is that acceptable? Those are tough questions for sure, and ones best decided by a judge and not someone in the private sector.
        kd3 7y ago
        Not only that but it looks more like they intend to actively monitor traffic in real time to check for things that are problematic according to them and their friends. And people need to realize this is not just for https traffic but also Ipfs and Wireguard. I'm sure it won't stop there either. Defeats the whole point of those technologies to have Cloudflare spying in the middle. This is China 2.0.

zemo 7y ago

> All encryption becomes useless. if you're gonna conspiracy theorize at least go the whole mile. They provide SSL termination so the encryption is useful to them because it gives them a monopoly on the surveillance apparatus. Not useless at all, it guarantees their position in the ecosystem.

rossdavidh 7y ago

While I agree there is a risk, I think a lot of their free customers would either not be using SSL at all, or else would find it too complex to remain independent and just have a Facebook page instead, if Cloudflare didn't make that kind of thing easier. Neither seems like it would be better. Not to mention things like being able to resist a DDOS from anyone who dislikes you. Sure, there may be some people using Cloudflare free services who would otherwise be doing it themselves, but I think by far the greater majority of their non-paying users are folks too small and/or non-technical to maintain their own site otherwise.

quickthrower2 7y ago
I don’t think non-technical people will be using CF directly. More like WiX GoDaddy etc.