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This is literally the first time anyone has ever put together a cogent argument for why the framework du jour exists. Thank you! I still personally feel like

This is literally the first time anyone has ever put together a cogent argument for why the framework du jour exists. Thank you! I still personally feel like I can usually get more done with pure Javascript but, as I said in my original post, at least they appear to be headed in a better direction. I did a project in Vue last year and it didn't entirely suck. Unlike the nightmare that was an Angular project I did two years ago.

hardwaresofton 7y ago
Oh definitely -- when you can get stuff done with pure javascript it's beautiful -- but once you notice yourself doing too much, it's time to pick one of these small frameworks. BTW, you should check out Mithril[0], it's my current favorite, it's very small and self-contained yet very complete. It's got a slow, cautious moving community, and just enough of what you need and virtually nothing you don't -- very easy to use without bundling at all. Also, the web components spec[1] is on the horizon and once it lands (and most frameworks support some mode where they spit out web components) we're going to get interop for free. Also pro tip if you're going to start a new project these days and you need to get in the whole bundling swamp, use parcel. It's amazing, almost always zero config or close to it, and just works[2]. [0]: https://mithril.js.org https://mithril.js.org [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Web_Components https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Web_Components [2]: https://parceljs.org/ https://parceljs.org/
- hardwaresofton 7y ago
  Commenting on my own comment, but Polymer[0] also deserves some love! v3 looks really amazing ergonomics wise, and it's the most web-standards friendly. The early demos of polymer (some showing being able to just drop a <google-map/> on your plain HTML page) really were mind-blowing. Also, it's actually in use on a bunch of google properties, like Youtube (you can actually see on some of the older pages that some URLs have a some use_polymer query parameter that turns it on/off). Polymer is really interesting because it represents a kind of return to the early web but with all the new-web thinking -- just drop some custom component on your page (so only needing to think in HTML) and you're good to go. [0]: https://polymer-library.polymer-project.org/3.0/docs/about_30 https://polymer-library.polymer-project.org/3.0/docs/about_3...
jf22 7y ago
In an earlier comment, you said you weren't a "framework guy". If you were you would have heard this cogent argument dozens of times already as it's fairly common knowledge to people who are into frameworks. Consider trying to understand why frameworks are created before using them. Understanding the motivations behind a framework will help you navigate the api easily and could change your opinion about whatever frustrates you.
- Zelphyr 7y ago
  I've used every one of the frameworks that I mentioned with the exception of Svelte, and am surrounded by framework users. Not a single one has ever made that argument. It's always, "Look at this new shiny framework, we must use it!" And all of those frameworks were great right up until the point that my client or company had a product requirement that the framework designers hadn't though of and then, suddenly, the framework was working against me instead of for me.
- hardwaresofton 7y ago
  I'd also consider myself not a "framework guy" -- Spring is not my favorite, I pick flask/sinatra over rails/django, servant over yesod, vue + vue-router over ember (these days) etc. Maybe the distinction is that it really matters which framework, and how it's put together, and how much you have to commit to use any of it. I think the commenter's question was really more about the diaspora of these tools and why they all exist -- svelte is pretty decidedly not a framework (in fact I don't even think you can make it one, AFAIK there isn't like a "svelte data"). IMO the only full blown frontend frameworks are Ember, Angular and react/vue + react/vue-router + flux-y pattern data store.

hardwaresofton 7y ago

Oh definitely -- when you can get stuff done with pure javascript it's beautiful -- but once you notice yourself doing too much, it's time to pick one of these small frameworks. BTW, you should check out Mithril[0], it's my current favorite, it's very small and self-contained yet very complete. It's got a slow, cautious moving community, and just enough of what you need and virtually nothing you don't -- very easy to use without bundling at all. Also, the web components spec[1] is on the horizon and once it lands (and most frameworks support some mode where they spit out web components) we're going to get interop for free. Also pro tip if you're going to start a new project these days and you need to get in the whole bundling swamp, use parcel. It's amazing, almost always zero config or close to it, and just works[2]. [0]: https://mithril.js.org https://mithril.js.org [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Web_Components https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Web_Components [2]: https://parceljs.org/ https://parceljs.org/

hardwaresofton 7y ago
Commenting on my own comment, but Polymer[0] also deserves some love! v3 looks really amazing ergonomics wise, and it's the most web-standards friendly. The early demos of polymer (some showing being able to just drop a <google-map/> on your plain HTML page) really were mind-blowing. Also, it's actually in use on a bunch of google properties, like Youtube (you can actually see on some of the older pages that some URLs have a some use_polymer query parameter that turns it on/off). Polymer is really interesting because it represents a kind of return to the early web but with all the new-web thinking -- just drop some custom component on your page (so only needing to think in HTML) and you're good to go. [0]: https://polymer-library.polymer-project.org/3.0/docs/about_30 https://polymer-library.polymer-project.org/3.0/docs/about_3...

jf22 7y ago

In an earlier comment, you said you weren't a "framework guy". If you were you would have heard this cogent argument dozens of times already as it's fairly common knowledge to people who are into frameworks. Consider trying to understand why frameworks are created before using them. Understanding the motivations behind a framework will help you navigate the api easily and could change your opinion about whatever frustrates you.

Zelphyr 7y ago
I've used every one of the frameworks that I mentioned with the exception of Svelte, and am surrounded by framework users. Not a single one has ever made that argument. It's always, "Look at this new shiny framework, we must use it!" And all of those frameworks were great right up until the point that my client or company had a product requirement that the framework designers hadn't though of and then, suddenly, the framework was working against me instead of for me.
hardwaresofton 7y ago
I'd also consider myself not a "framework guy" -- Spring is not my favorite, I pick flask/sinatra over rails/django, servant over yesod, vue + vue-router over ember (these days) etc. Maybe the distinction is that it really matters which framework, and how it's put together, and how much you have to commit to use any of it. I think the commenter's question was really more about the diaspora of these tools and why they all exist -- svelte is pretty decidedly not a framework (in fact I don't even think you can make it one, AFAIK there isn't like a "svelte data"). IMO the only full blown frontend frameworks are Ember, Angular and react/vue + react/vue-router + flux-y pattern data store.