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From what I hear, Apple tries extremely hard to block Linux from booting on new Macbook models. Disabling "secure boot" isn't enough.

by swebs 7y ago

derefr 7y ago
I find it strange that they bother, since in the end you can always just run a fullscreen Linux VM and hand it over 99% of the computer’s resources. Maybe Apple’s true worry might be revealed by considering the difference between what they allow and what they prevent. Apple allow you to have a wholly-Linux UX on an Apple laptop; but they don’t allow Linux developers to run a Linux kernel directly on Apple hardware. Maybe what they’re really concerned about is Linux having an easy testbed for developing MacBook hardware/peripheral drivers, such as for the T2, such that people could build apps in other OSes that take advantage of the touchbar, and thus in some way “commoditize” one of the costlier USPs of macOS?
- umanwizard 7y ago
  They actually don't prevent you from running a Linux kernel on their hardware, though.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- saagarjha 7y ago
  People are making software for the Touch Bar that runs on Windows already.
- xenadu02 7y ago
  If a minuscule number of people buying your hardware ever run linux, would you waste even one week testing support for it? Would you waste even a single EFI engineer's time on it? What if it were 0.1%? Or 0.01%? What leads you to believe anyone at Apple spent even 5 minutes thinking about linux support at any point in time?
mjg59 7y ago
Linux boots fine on new Apple hardware, but only just gained support for Apple's not quite spec compliant NVMe
geofft 7y ago
My understanding is that Apple didn't try to block anything, Linux just lacked appropriate driver support for their disk. It is a testament to how far Linux on the desktop has come that our first assumption when Linux doesn't boot on a new machine is "The megacorp is using secret cryptography" and not "eh, missing drivers."
- wtallis 7y ago
  "Missing drivers" doesn't quite accurately convey what Apple did. They bastardized the NVMe spec, requiring OS developers to add Apple-specific workarounds to their existing drivers.
  - geofft 7y ago
    Sure, but it's not like "Vendor didn't quite implement a spec the way they should have, requiring driver quirks" has never happened before in the history of Linux drivers....
    - wtallis 7y ago
      I can't recall any NVMe device requiring as many workarounds as the Apple T2. Usually it's something along the lines of certain power states not working as intended, or the drive not providing a unique identifier. Apple changed the size of fundamental data structures, botched the interrupt handling, imposed unnecessary constraints on the mixing of IO and admin commands, and effectively broke one of the biggest performance advantages of NVMe (multiple IO queues). And some vendors actually help with the development of workarounds for their broken drives, and push out firmware fixes when possible so that the workarounds can be disabled on newer or updated devices.

From what I hear, Apple tries extremely hard to block Linux from booting on new Macbook models. Disabling "secure boot" isn't enough.

by swebs 7y ago

From what I hear, Apple tries extremely hard to block Linux from booting on new Macbook models. Disabling "secure boot" isn't enough.

derefr 7y ago

I find it strange that they bother, since in the end you can always just run a fullscreen Linux VM and hand it over 99% of the computer’s resources. Maybe Apple’s true worry might be revealed by considering the difference between what they allow and what they prevent. Apple allow you to have a wholly-Linux UX on an Apple laptop; but they don’t allow Linux developers to run a Linux kernel directly on Apple hardware. Maybe what they’re really concerned about is Linux having an easy testbed for developing MacBook hardware/peripheral drivers, such as for the T2, such that people could build apps in other OSes that take advantage of the touchbar, and thus in some way “commoditize” one of the costlier USPs of macOS?

umanwizard 7y ago
They actually don't prevent you from running a Linux kernel on their hardware, though.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
saagarjha 7y ago
People are making software for the Touch Bar that runs on Windows already.
xenadu02 7y ago
If a minuscule number of people buying your hardware ever run linux, would you waste even one week testing support for it? Would you waste even a single EFI engineer's time on it? What if it were 0.1%? Or 0.01%? What leads you to believe anyone at Apple spent even 5 minutes thinking about linux support at any point in time?

mjg59 7y ago

Linux boots fine on new Apple hardware, but only just gained support for Apple's not quite spec compliant NVMe

geofft 7y ago

My understanding is that Apple didn't try to block anything, Linux just lacked appropriate driver support for their disk. It is a testament to how far Linux on the desktop has come that our first assumption when Linux doesn't boot on a new machine is "The megacorp is using secret cryptography" and not "eh, missing drivers."

wtallis 7y ago
"Missing drivers" doesn't quite accurately convey what Apple did. They bastardized the NVMe spec, requiring OS developers to add Apple-specific workarounds to their existing drivers.
- geofft 7y ago
  Sure, but it's not like "Vendor didn't quite implement a spec the way they should have, requiring driver quirks" has never happened before in the history of Linux drivers....
  - wtallis 7y ago
    I can't recall any NVMe device requiring as many workarounds as the Apple T2. Usually it's something along the lines of certain power states not working as intended, or the drive not providing a unique identifier. Apple changed the size of fundamental data structures, botched the interrupt handling, imposed unnecessary constraints on the mixing of IO and admin commands, and effectively broke one of the biggest performance advantages of NVMe (multiple IO queues). And some vendors actually help with the development of workarounds for their broken drives, and push out firmware fixes when possible so that the workarounds can be disabled on newer or updated devices.