4 ms·

This may also stem from some union-busting messaging. One of the talking points that you see on anti-union posters and in videos is "unions get in the way of yo

by Frondo 7y ago

This may also stem from some union-busting messaging. One of the talking points that you see on anti-union posters and in videos is "unions get in the way of you talking to your manager, when you can talk to your manager directly you can address concerns straightaway with them." This reminds me of that.

GarrisonPrime 7y ago
Yes...and is that not factual? My experience being in a union tells me it is.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  My experience being in a union tells me it's not. But unions literally are (within the law) whatever their members decide they will be, so if you expect that of your potential union, it just means you expect it of your coworkers.
  - asark 7y ago
    Some bad companies: no big deal, no one's making you stay, leave if you don't like it. Some bad unions: all unions are awful and the solution is to not have unions.
    - username90 7y ago
      If a company is bad you can just switch to another company, if a powerful union is bad you'd have to switch to another industry.
      - Yoric 7y ago
        I imagine that this may be true, but only if there's a single union in the industry. Why on Earth would that be the case?
        umvi 7y ago
        Because Unions are basically corporations that go by another name and want to gobble up the market share? Unions are not benevolent. They are bureaucratic organizations that want to grow in power and resources just like a corporation. Their interests just happen to be orthogonal to corporate interests which can be beneficial for employees. https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/
        benj111 7y ago
        An interesting model. I suppose you could describe many groups of people as corporations by another name so I'm not sure how far that gets us, and I tend to treat groups of people large enough to have emergent behaviours as essentially amoral anyway. Your market share comments are interesting. I remember Matt Levine making an observation about Uber's 'contractors', if they attempted to unionise could be guilty of price fixing, because they're supposed to be competitors. The corporation seems to be another step along where price fixing within the corporation is allowed, and the union goes a step further again by making monopolistic behaviour ok. As a society that has decided that a corporation can decide how to organise itself and work together internally, but also a society that has decided that monopoly, or at least the abuse of that monopoly is wrong, these seem to be interesting exceptions.
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
        They are assuming the German sector based model here.
        username90 7y ago
        Is there anything preventing unions from growing huge and essentially dominating entire sectors in the US?
        Frondo 7y ago
        Yes, that's not how unions are structured by law in the US. Every union is shop-based and organized against a specific employer. They usually throw in with a larger union or an association, but not always. This is where the "Local 404" comes from -- the union itself is the local ###, aligned with the national federation. The union at Powell's Books, for example, is a retail union but they're connected to the ILWU, the longshoremen. Portland is also undergoing an tremendous unionization battle at a local burger chain (Burgerville); one or two of the shops have successfully unionized, while the rest are still fighting for their right to organize. That's because unions here are at the shop level, and there just couldn't be one burger union that dominated all burger-making.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        Or convince other employees in your workplace that that union is bad and decertify them (perhaps replacing them with a new union that you and your coworkers form, either independently or affiliated with a better parent union.)
        GarrisonPrime 7y ago
        How is that easier than convincing the employer? Seems much harder, especially since the middle-men have a vested interest in perpetuating any problems.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  Not my experience at all.
- Yoric 7y ago
  My experience in a union tells me that it isn't. Being unionized doesn't mean that you have to be on the warpath at all time. It just means that if the structure (quite often, not directly your manager) has a big problem, the workers have the necessary logistics to share information and help each other, regardless of the management structure. In some cases, it may be confrontational, but that's pretty unusual in my personal experience.
- mola 7y ago
  Because the amount of force use by employers against unions in very anti social countries such as corporate US is extreme, then you might get that feeling. But countries where business and unions understand that they're partners and not enemies , both sides usually are not on a war path. The problem is not big business, or socialism, the problem is of mentality. Sadly the US business mentality is centered around bullying and zero sum perception of the world. violence begets violence. Too bad this brain virus is catching on at other cultures. It'll end up with either a big blowout, or suppression of the masses.
- JoeSmithson 7y ago
  Was your manager not in the union as well...? This is so far outside my experience I can't even understand it. How does union leadership know if you talk to your manager? How do they enforce you not talking to them?

by Frondo 7y ago

GarrisonPrime 7y ago

Yes...and is that not factual? My experience being in a union tells me it is.

dragonwriter 7y ago
My experience being in a union tells me it's not. But unions literally are (within the law) whatever their members decide they will be, so if you expect that of your potential union, it just means you expect it of your coworkers.
- asark 7y ago
  Some bad companies: no big deal, no one's making you stay, leave if you don't like it. Some bad unions: all unions are awful and the solution is to not have unions.
  - username90 7y ago
    If a company is bad you can just switch to another company, if a powerful union is bad you'd have to switch to another industry.
    - Yoric 7y ago
      I imagine that this may be true, but only if there's a single union in the industry. Why on Earth would that be the case?
      - umvi 7y ago
        Because Unions are basically corporations that go by another name and want to gobble up the market share? Unions are not benevolent. They are bureaucratic organizations that want to grow in power and resources just like a corporation. Their interests just happen to be orthogonal to corporate interests which can be beneficial for employees. https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/
        benj111 7y ago
        An interesting model. I suppose you could describe many groups of people as corporations by another name so I'm not sure how far that gets us, and I tend to treat groups of people large enough to have emergent behaviours as essentially amoral anyway. Your market share comments are interesting. I remember Matt Levine making an observation about Uber's 'contractors', if they attempted to unionise could be guilty of price fixing, because they're supposed to be competitors. The corporation seems to be another step along where price fixing within the corporation is allowed, and the union goes a step further again by making monopolistic behaviour ok. As a society that has decided that a corporation can decide how to organise itself and work together internally, but also a society that has decided that monopoly, or at least the abuse of that monopoly is wrong, these seem to be interesting exceptions.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        They are assuming the German sector based model here.
        username90 7y ago
        Is there anything preventing unions from growing huge and essentially dominating entire sectors in the US?
        Frondo 7y ago
        Yes, that's not how unions are structured by law in the US. Every union is shop-based and organized against a specific employer. They usually throw in with a larger union or an association, but not always. This is where the "Local 404" comes from -- the union itself is the local ###, aligned with the national federation. The union at Powell's Books, for example, is a retail union but they're connected to the ILWU, the longshoremen. Portland is also undergoing an tremendous unionization battle at a local burger chain (Burgerville); one or two of the shops have successfully unionized, while the rest are still fighting for their right to organize. That's because unions here are at the shop level, and there just couldn't be one burger union that dominated all burger-making.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Or convince other employees in your workplace that that union is bad and decertify them (perhaps replacing them with a new union that you and your coworkers form, either independently or affiliated with a better parent union.)
      - GarrisonPrime 7y ago
        How is that easier than convincing the employer? Seems much harder, especially since the middle-men have a vested interest in perpetuating any problems.
ilikehurdles 7y ago
Not my experience at all.
Yoric 7y ago
My experience in a union tells me that it isn't. Being unionized doesn't mean that you have to be on the warpath at all time. It just means that if the structure (quite often, not directly your manager) has a big problem, the workers have the necessary logistics to share information and help each other, regardless of the management structure. In some cases, it may be confrontational, but that's pretty unusual in my personal experience.
mola 7y ago
Because the amount of force use by employers against unions in very anti social countries such as corporate US is extreme, then you might get that feeling. But countries where business and unions understand that they're partners and not enemies , both sides usually are not on a war path. The problem is not big business, or socialism, the problem is of mentality. Sadly the US business mentality is centered around bullying and zero sum perception of the world. violence begets violence. Too bad this brain virus is catching on at other cultures. It'll end up with either a big blowout, or suppression of the masses.
JoeSmithson 7y ago
Was your manager not in the union as well...? This is so far outside my experience I can't even understand it. How does union leadership know if you talk to your manager? How do they enforce you not talking to them?