4 ms·

This is the fantastic irony of the completely false dichotomy that the public imagines mainstream politics to be. The modern left seems to paradoxically be sup

by ajxs 7y ago

This is the fantastic irony of the completely false dichotomy that the public imagines mainstream politics to be. The modern left seems to paradoxically be supporting open-borders _and_ worker's rights. Normally I would further qualify that statement by attributing such sentiments to the _far_ left, but this seems to be a fairly mainstream position based upon what we saw in the Democratic Primary debates recently. I find it difficult to believe that a pro-trade union candidate like Bernie Sanders does not understand the basic laws of supply/demand: How a supply of cheap labour affects the wages of the individual employee. I'm in my early 30s and I came of age immersed in the counter-culture of the 90s. Nihilistic Industrial rock decrying the emergence of free-trade and a globalised economy was the left wing soundtrack of the age. Now the far-left seems to be wholesale pro free movement of people and capital. I would accuse the masses expecting that this will not have a negative impact on the financial well-being of the individual of absolute foolishness, but it seems that many proponents of such policies are no longer expecting them to be feasible within the framework of social-democracy. Instead opting for much more collectivist forms of government.

deogeo 7y ago
> I find it difficult to believe that a pro-trade union candidate like Bernie Sanders does not understand the basic laws of supply/demand: How a supply of cheap labour affects the wages of the individual employee. This interview would indicate that he understands that, and wants to restrict immigration for that very reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 Edit: The interview is from 2015, so it may be that his understanding has 'evolved' since.
- ajxs 7y ago
  ( Without watching said interview, I'm in the office and don't have headphones ) Did Sanders not indicate his support for decriminalisation of illegal border crossing in the primaries? I would hardly take that as an endorsement of restricting immigration.
  - supercow12 7y ago
    Not necessarily no. Most border crossings aren't even prosecuted. https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/520/ https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/520/ Increasing the number of them being prosecuted places a massive burden on the court system and results in the various unjust scenarios we have today. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/border-immigration-courts.html?module=inline https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/border-immigration-cou... There isn't any evidence that criminalization decreases the number of border crossings either. https://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2015/OIG_15-95_May15.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2015/OIG_15-95_May15.pdf Indeed, immigration levels haven't decreased under trump despite the massive increase in prosecutions. Given this, it isn't absurd to think that other approaches would be at least as effective at controlling immigration in practice.
  - masonic 7y ago
    Simple border crossing was not a criminal act then in the first place.
p1necone 7y ago
I imagine a lot of people see the American right literally throwing children into internment camps and don't really think much further than "let's do the opposite of that".
- deogeo 7y ago
  As neetdeth's poll shows, it doesn't matter what the people think - immigration continues regardless. Even under Trump, legal immigration remains at near-record levels.
fzeroracer 7y ago
I'm not sure why you can't be pro-workers and support less restrictive borders. The issue of immigrants being paid less is one easily solved by ensuring that immigrants, legal or not, have to be paid the exact same amount as any US citizen. Then you aggressively punish companies (and not the workers) whom choose to violate this law. The only reason why it's 'cheap' labour is because traditionally immigrant labor has been used for things that either Americans won't do (due to low pay) or through corporations not being punished. This situation is why H-1B abuse is prevalent among certain companies: They hold the deportation card over immigrants, which then gives them market leverage to pay them less by having them fear losing or switching jobs. This is an issue paradoxically supported by the modern right, because it's usually farmers and larger corporations that benefit the most. The fixes that the modern right realistically want is the ability to eliminate minimum wage and further destroy workers rights because it makes labor cheaper which in turn boosts profits.

by ajxs 7y ago

deogeo 7y ago

> I find it difficult to believe that a pro-trade union candidate like Bernie Sanders does not understand the basic laws of supply/demand: How a supply of cheap labour affects the wages of the individual employee. This interview would indicate that he understands that, and wants to restrict immigration for that very reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 Edit: The interview is from 2015, so it may be that his understanding has 'evolved' since.

ajxs 7y ago
( Without watching said interview, I'm in the office and don't have headphones ) Did Sanders not indicate his support for decriminalisation of illegal border crossing in the primaries? I would hardly take that as an endorsement of restricting immigration.
- supercow12 7y ago
  Not necessarily no. Most border crossings aren't even prosecuted. https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/520/ https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/520/ Increasing the number of them being prosecuted places a massive burden on the court system and results in the various unjust scenarios we have today. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/border-immigration-courts.html?module=inline https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/border-immigration-cou... There isn't any evidence that criminalization decreases the number of border crossings either. https://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2015/OIG_15-95_May15.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2015/OIG_15-95_May15.pdf Indeed, immigration levels haven't decreased under trump despite the massive increase in prosecutions. Given this, it isn't absurd to think that other approaches would be at least as effective at controlling immigration in practice.
- masonic 7y ago
  Simple border crossing was not a criminal act then in the first place.

p1necone 7y ago

I imagine a lot of people see the American right literally throwing children into internment camps and don't really think much further than "let's do the opposite of that".

deogeo 7y ago
As neetdeth's poll shows, it doesn't matter what the people think - immigration continues regardless. Even under Trump, legal immigration remains at near-record levels.

fzeroracer 7y ago

I'm not sure why you can't be pro-workers and support less restrictive borders. The issue of immigrants being paid less is one easily solved by ensuring that immigrants, legal or not, have to be paid the exact same amount as any US citizen. Then you aggressively punish companies (and not the workers) whom choose to violate this law. The only reason why it's 'cheap' labour is because traditionally immigrant labor has been used for things that either Americans won't do (due to low pay) or through corporations not being punished. This situation is why H-1B abuse is prevalent among certain companies: They hold the deportation card over immigrants, which then gives them market leverage to pay them less by having them fear losing or switching jobs. This is an issue paradoxically supported by the modern right, because it's usually farmers and larger corporations that benefit the most. The fixes that the modern right realistically want is the ability to eliminate minimum wage and further destroy workers rights because it makes labor cheaper which in turn boosts profits.