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If this tweet is accurate, Apple's choices here are pretty hard to explain as anything but "leverage / abuse mobile phone monopoly to kneecap competitors", espe

If this tweet is accurate, Apple's choices here are pretty hard to explain as anything but "leverage / abuse mobile phone monopoly to kneecap competitors", especially because nowhere in this document does it actually describe how this makes users' lives better in any concrete, specific way https://mobile.twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1161779661644300293 https://mobile.twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1161779661644...

elgenie 7y ago
Unfortunately, under the current interpretation of US anti-trust law (thanks Robert Bork!), leveraging monopoly to knee-cap competitors is a-OK if it doesn't directly hurt consumers. The chances of anti-trust law returning to an interpretation that protects competition under the current judiciary are nil.
- scarface74 7y ago
  How is Apple blocking an ad network “anticompetitive” when Apple’s only ad platform is within the App Store?
  - elgenie 7y ago
    Well, how does a competitor make money on iOS without giving Apple a 30% cut of app installs and in-app purchases and/or using their ad network?
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Simple, the same way that Spotify, Netflix, Amazon (Kindle), DirecTVNow, Sling, and a bunch of other companies do - force people to pay on their own websites to use the app.... Apple doesn’t have an “ad network”.
      - RandomBK 7y ago
        Only catch here is that Apple also takes a cut of such subscription revenue if it goes through an app [0]. Individually, I support Apple's decisions around enforcing privacy on the web. However, Apple's decisions when taken as a whole is making it incredibly difficult for a company to generate revenue from iOS users without sharing some of that revenue with Apple. Whether this makes Apple a monolopy I do not know, but it's certainly less clear of a good thing than their privacy efforts. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/13/spotify-claim-apple-30-percent-app-store-commission-unfair-european-commission-complaint https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/13/spotify-c...
        toasterlovin 7y ago
        No, they only take a cut if the subscription is originated on the app.
      - hesarenu 7y ago
        why can't they do it on their app?
        scarface74 7y ago
        Can I pay the manufacturer of a good directly and walk into a retail store to pick it up? But let’s not be overly idealistic, the vast majority of revenue in either App Store is from games and most of that is from in app purchases of coins, gyms, loot boxes etc.
        hesarenu 7y ago
        Can I install another store in Mobile eco system. Yes I can. But what you say is correct having another store would dent apple revenue would be loss of investors.
eridius 7y ago
> Google Analytics Website analytics should not rely on cross-site tracking. Breaking any cross-site tracking ability of GA is unambiguously good for users. > Google Ads conversion tracking Apple already proposed a mechanism of privacy-protecting click attribution. If Google doesn't want to use that, it's because they don't respect your privacy. Again, unambiguously good for users. > Using same login across different sites like Gmail & YouTube The only way this is "broken" that I can see is the user has to log in separately to each site. Which seems fine to me. In fact, this is a good thing; just because I log into Gmail with one account doesn't mean that's what I want to use for YouTube.
- 1986 7y ago
  I don't disagree with your note on cross-site analytics (though there are some in my mind valid use cases, such as tracking conversions when the payment process occurs on a separate domain), but the tracking policy is fairly vague as to the impact on single-site.
  - om2 7y ago
    Our goal is not to break single-site analytics, and if it gets affected as an unintended consequence, we will try to come up with alternate solutions.
    - 1986 7y ago
      Noted--thanks for the reply, both here and to my other comment.
- geofft 7y ago
  Also I thought that the way Google solves the shared login problem is that completing the login process on accounts.google.com redirects you to YouTube briefly (as a top-level navigation), which sets a first-party cookie for itself and sends you back to Google.
  - amluto 7y ago
scarface74 7y ago
Preventing Google ad tracking? Nothing of value is lost. Besides, Apple has had a built in content blocking framework since iOS 8 that allows third party ad blockers. I’ve been blocking Google’s ads for years.
braythwayt 7y ago
I find it easy to explain that Apple is not using a mobile phone monopoly to X, for any X, by virtue of the fact that Apple does not have a mobile phone monopoly, not even close. If I want Google ad tracking on my phone, I have a bewilderingly large selection of Android phones to choose from, all of which run on the same mobile networks as my iPhone, work with the same Internet, and all of the apps I consider part of my mobile workflow, like my PagerDuty and my banking app, are available on Android as well as iOS. I’d say it’s hard to use the words “monopoly” and “Apple” in the same sentence. They don’t have a monopoly in phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, wearables, streaming music, data storage, messaging, calendars, productivity apps, or anything else that I can think of.
- cthaeh 7y ago
  I find it very easy to use "Apple" and "monopoly" in the same sentence. Apple has been consistently making it harder to make money off iOS users without sharing that revenue with apple. Furthermore, they don't allow side loading of apps, their own apps have special api's that their competitors can't use, etc. I could go on and on.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    Luckily for this discussion, the word 'monopoly' has an accepted definition, which is: > The exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service Since Apple has, at most, below 50% market share in developed countries (and a much lower market share in developing countries), they do not possess a monopoly on the smartphone market.
    - cthaeh 7y ago
      By your given definition, Google isn't a monopoly either as there are clear alternatives to them in every sector that they are in.
      - ferzul 7y ago
        Although the definition the other user posted was too strong, it was mitigated by the observation that Apple is barely 50%. If we compare Google's marketshare in end user email, video hosting and search, we can see Google is a lot stronger in many markets, than apple is in their best market. (I wish I could use an iPhone, but having to use Mac OS for development is a real turn off, considering how sucky Mac OS, in my view, has ever been.)
om2 7y ago
That tweet is misinterpreting the “Unintended Consequences” section. Those are things we want to keep working, and if we break them, we will create alternate solutions (like Storage Access API for social embeds, and Private Click Measurement for as attribution).

elgenie 7y ago

Unfortunately, under the current interpretation of US anti-trust law (thanks Robert Bork!), leveraging monopoly to knee-cap competitors is a-OK if it doesn't directly hurt consumers. The chances of anti-trust law returning to an interpretation that protects competition under the current judiciary are nil.

scarface74 7y ago
How is Apple blocking an ad network “anticompetitive” when Apple’s only ad platform is within the App Store?
- elgenie 7y ago
  Well, how does a competitor make money on iOS without giving Apple a 30% cut of app installs and in-app purchases and/or using their ad network?
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Simple, the same way that Spotify, Netflix, Amazon (Kindle), DirecTVNow, Sling, and a bunch of other companies do - force people to pay on their own websites to use the app.... Apple doesn’t have an “ad network”.
    - RandomBK 7y ago
      Only catch here is that Apple also takes a cut of such subscription revenue if it goes through an app [0]. Individually, I support Apple's decisions around enforcing privacy on the web. However, Apple's decisions when taken as a whole is making it incredibly difficult for a company to generate revenue from iOS users without sharing some of that revenue with Apple. Whether this makes Apple a monolopy I do not know, but it's certainly less clear of a good thing than their privacy efforts. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/13/spotify-claim-apple-30-percent-app-store-commission-unfair-european-commission-complaint https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/13/spotify-c...
      - toasterlovin 7y ago
        No, they only take a cut if the subscription is originated on the app.
    - hesarenu 7y ago
      why can't they do it on their app?
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Can I pay the manufacturer of a good directly and walk into a retail store to pick it up? But let’s not be overly idealistic, the vast majority of revenue in either App Store is from games and most of that is from in app purchases of coins, gyms, loot boxes etc.
        hesarenu 7y ago
        Can I install another store in Mobile eco system. Yes I can. But what you say is correct having another store would dent apple revenue would be loss of investors.

eridius 7y ago

> Google Analytics Website analytics should not rely on cross-site tracking. Breaking any cross-site tracking ability of GA is unambiguously good for users. > Google Ads conversion tracking Apple already proposed a mechanism of privacy-protecting click attribution. If Google doesn't want to use that, it's because they don't respect your privacy. Again, unambiguously good for users. > Using same login across different sites like Gmail & YouTube The only way this is "broken" that I can see is the user has to log in separately to each site. Which seems fine to me. In fact, this is a good thing; just because I log into Gmail with one account doesn't mean that's what I want to use for YouTube.

1986 7y ago
I don't disagree with your note on cross-site analytics (though there are some in my mind valid use cases, such as tracking conversions when the payment process occurs on a separate domain), but the tracking policy is fairly vague as to the impact on single-site.
- om2 7y ago
  Our goal is not to break single-site analytics, and if it gets affected as an unintended consequence, we will try to come up with alternate solutions.
  - 1986 7y ago
    Noted--thanks for the reply, both here and to my other comment.
geofft 7y ago
Also I thought that the way Google solves the shared login problem is that completing the login process on accounts.google.com redirects you to YouTube briefly (as a top-level navigation), which sets a first-party cookie for itself and sends you back to Google.
- amluto 7y ago

scarface74 7y ago

Preventing Google ad tracking? Nothing of value is lost. Besides, Apple has had a built in content blocking framework since iOS 8 that allows third party ad blockers. I’ve been blocking Google’s ads for years.

braythwayt 7y ago

I find it easy to explain that Apple is not using a mobile phone monopoly to X, for any X, by virtue of the fact that Apple does not have a mobile phone monopoly, not even close. If I want Google ad tracking on my phone, I have a bewilderingly large selection of Android phones to choose from, all of which run on the same mobile networks as my iPhone, work with the same Internet, and all of the apps I consider part of my mobile workflow, like my PagerDuty and my banking app, are available on Android as well as iOS. I’d say it’s hard to use the words “monopoly” and “Apple” in the same sentence. They don’t have a monopoly in phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, wearables, streaming music, data storage, messaging, calendars, productivity apps, or anything else that I can think of.

cthaeh 7y ago
I find it very easy to use "Apple" and "monopoly" in the same sentence. Apple has been consistently making it harder to make money off iOS users without sharing that revenue with apple. Furthermore, they don't allow side loading of apps, their own apps have special api's that their competitors can't use, etc. I could go on and on.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  Luckily for this discussion, the word 'monopoly' has an accepted definition, which is: > The exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service Since Apple has, at most, below 50% market share in developed countries (and a much lower market share in developing countries), they do not possess a monopoly on the smartphone market.
  - cthaeh 7y ago
    By your given definition, Google isn't a monopoly either as there are clear alternatives to them in every sector that they are in.
    - ferzul 7y ago
      Although the definition the other user posted was too strong, it was mitigated by the observation that Apple is barely 50%. If we compare Google's marketshare in end user email, video hosting and search, we can see Google is a lot stronger in many markets, than apple is in their best market. (I wish I could use an iPhone, but having to use Mac OS for development is a real turn off, considering how sucky Mac OS, in my view, has ever been.)

om2 7y ago

That tweet is misinterpreting the “Unintended Consequences” section. Those are things we want to keep working, and if we break them, we will create alternate solutions (like Storage Access API for social embeds, and Private Click Measurement for as attribution).