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Huawei will likely become the main competition for NSO group and companies like it, but that's the least of the worlds worries. Governments with resource wealt

Huawei will likely become the main competition for NSO group and companies like it, but that's the least of the worlds worries. Governments with resource wealth don't need large public services that would operate a sophisticated intelligence service, so they outsource it. So far these governments have been doing point targeting against dissidents w/ mercenary surveillance companies, but it's possible these companies are about to be steamrolled by one that implements their products as a free feature of their entire infrastructure. The bargain will be, we'll support your campaign/coup and modernize your infrastructure for your people, while giving you intel we collect on your dissidents and opposition. Then, once Huawei infrastructure is ensconced, no government will get into power who does not have support from China. A very "harmonious," cycle. Want be be elected again? Secure our rights to extract rare earth minerals. Etc. The company is a projection of Chinese state power, not unlike western telcoms with 5EYES and the ITU has been. The difference is the Party lacks the sentimentality of western countries when it comes to issues of total surveillance and intervention to maintain control. (Albeit, we have never been above supporting butchers either, so YMMV.) My prediction is that once the Huawei gear is in place, a country's political class will turn to face east on policy and resource questions. It's pure leverage. Western tech companies can't make the same promises to those governments either. It's not like Google can promise to prop up the next Idi Amin, but Huawei doesn't have that constraint. So far, the world has been content to deal with the devil it knows. Anyway, I'd say this article is an anecdote of a larger geopolitical shift. Containing Huawei should be a national security priority for everyone, but tbh, it's looking more and more like our respective mere leviathans have become oversized, slow moving prey for their hydra.

rtpg 7y ago
> It's not like Google can promise to prop up the next Idi Amin I wish this were the case, but western companies are constantly supplying both software and hardware to repressive regimes. Hell, weapons! Though the fact that we believe that western tech companies can't make those promises means that there's at least public support for making this a reality
majia 7y ago
What you said about Huawei is more applicable to Boeing, which sells weapon systems instead of telecom gears. You may want to look at how US companies are involved in arm sales to Saudi. It’s fair that US wants to contain China’s leverage in Africa and maintain its own, but this is a national security priority for US , not “everyone”.
- scanny 7y ago
  Well the difference here is that in a liberal democracy we can prevent that from happening if we wish. Unless we don't have a majority that is https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vetoes-congresss-attempt-to-block-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia/2019/07/24/7b047c32-ae65-11e9-a0c9-6d2d7818f3da_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vetoes-congres...
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > Well the difference here is that in a liberal democracy we can prevent that from happening if we wish. Since it's been going on for a long time, you either cannot, or you don't want to.
    - scanny 7y ago
      By you do you mean 'I', or you as in 327 million individuals that make up the population of the United States? Do you think it's easy to convince a nations population to push for change, if it was then issues like climate change could be tackled overnight. Democracy is a messy and flawed process, but it is the best we have. The fact still remains that no matter how much you bemoan the current state of affairs that there is a framework for changing things.
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    no in a liberal democracy you can pretend that you could prevent it so that everyone can feel better about themselves while it happens
    - 7y ago
sittingnut 7y ago
google did create apps for opponents of assad, you know the people who were trying to impose a theocratic state in syria, in contrast to brutish but secular assad, and enslaved women from other religious groups, among other atrocities.
tibbydudeza 7y ago
Sadly it has been shown the United States circa 2019 is not an ally anymore ... it is an alien country to most of us now where you have somehow elected a nativist leader who is a racist. At this stage for us Africans the Chinese seems like a more dependable and friendlier lot.
- rhegart 7y ago
  I see the propaganda machine has completely brainwashed you. Similar to how the propaganda machine painted USA as completely benevolent in my early years. Opposite effect now.
  - pms 7y ago
    Isn't this against Hacker News rules to call another user "completely brainwashed"? Brainwashing is what WSJ does since Murdoch took control over it and what mainstream Western media were doing to motivate the last deadly invasion on Iraq [1,2]. Just look at the reality. The US military killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, while the US public elected and supported its leaders who started this war by brainwashing the global population to believe their lies (and now the story repeats itself with Trump [3]). Who was/is brainwashed? [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/20/18274228/ari-fleischer-iraq-lies-george-w-bush-wmds https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/20/18274228/a... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/opinion/kurtz-iraq-media-failure/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/opinion/kurtz-iraq-media-fail... [3] https://theintercept.com/2019/08/14/trump-iran-worst-lies/ https://theintercept.com/2019/08/14/trump-iran-worst-lies/
- brighter2morrow 7y ago
  You're not African. You are Jewish.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. Just wait and see, the loans you are getting ( not investments) are for Chinese workers. The loans are at 4-6% if the work isn't executed by Chinese workers. That's not an ally
jversd673 7y ago
"The difference is the Party lacks the sentimentality of western countries when it comes to issues of total surveillance and intervention to maintain control" No, the difference is hypocrisy, and of course tons of daily propaganda from the Western media / Corporations / Governments / intelligence agencies. https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/
ivanhoe 7y ago
In Serbia it was primarily Israelis who sold all of the surveillance tech to the government, and now China seems to be pushing everyone else out of the market. It really makes a very little difference to common people, one foreign actor or the other, none of the sides is really altruistic in that game...
- close04 7y ago
  I think this is the real problem: China/Huawei are pushing their competition out of the "support an (oppressive) regime" business. They become the go-to partner for regimes that historically relied on western or middle-eastern partners maintaining their authority.
  - cm2187 7y ago
    Maybe merely a quality choice! If you want to buy a nice car, you go for a German brand, if you want fine wine, go French, if you want software, go American, if you want an orwellian mass surveillance system, you go with the country which speciality it is!
    - luzjh 7y ago
      Well said! Thanks for the gold, stranger!
    - close04 7y ago
      > if you want an orwellian mass surveillance system I think this misses the point. Countries like US or Israel are perfectly capable [0][1][2] of offering such systems. And they do because it gives them another solid "string" attached to the regime receiving it. Their problem is that now the string (and all the knowledge, power, influence that come with it) could go to China. Hence the campaign to discredit them simply by suggesting this behavior is limited to them. Putting the facts in perspective would undermine this. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-israel-s-cyber-spy-industry-aids-dictators-hunt-dissidents-and-gays-1.6573027 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-israel... [1] https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/report-saudi-arabia-used-israeli-tech-to-try-and-track-dissident-in-canada-1.6517064 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/report-saudi-arabia... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/17/how-us-surveillance-technology-is-propping-up-authoritarian-regimes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/17/how-us-sur...

rtpg 7y ago

> It's not like Google can promise to prop up the next Idi Amin I wish this were the case, but western companies are constantly supplying both software and hardware to repressive regimes. Hell, weapons! Though the fact that we believe that western tech companies can't make those promises means that there's at least public support for making this a reality

majia 7y ago

What you said about Huawei is more applicable to Boeing, which sells weapon systems instead of telecom gears. You may want to look at how US companies are involved in arm sales to Saudi. It’s fair that US wants to contain China’s leverage in Africa and maintain its own, but this is a national security priority for US , not “everyone”.

scanny 7y ago
Well the difference here is that in a liberal democracy we can prevent that from happening if we wish. Unless we don't have a majority that is https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vetoes-congresss-attempt-to-block-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia/2019/07/24/7b047c32-ae65-11e9-a0c9-6d2d7818f3da_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vetoes-congres...
- luckylion 7y ago
  > Well the difference here is that in a liberal democracy we can prevent that from happening if we wish. Since it's been going on for a long time, you either cannot, or you don't want to.
  - scanny 7y ago
    By you do you mean 'I', or you as in 327 million individuals that make up the population of the United States? Do you think it's easy to convince a nations population to push for change, if it was then issues like climate change could be tackled overnight. Democracy is a messy and flawed process, but it is the best we have. The fact still remains that no matter how much you bemoan the current state of affairs that there is a framework for changing things.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  no in a liberal democracy you can pretend that you could prevent it so that everyone can feel better about themselves while it happens
  - 7y ago

sittingnut 7y ago

google did create apps for opponents of assad, you know the people who were trying to impose a theocratic state in syria, in contrast to brutish but secular assad, and enslaved women from other religious groups, among other atrocities.

tibbydudeza 7y ago

Sadly it has been shown the United States circa 2019 is not an ally anymore ... it is an alien country to most of us now where you have somehow elected a nativist leader who is a racist. At this stage for us Africans the Chinese seems like a more dependable and friendlier lot.

rhegart 7y ago
I see the propaganda machine has completely brainwashed you. Similar to how the propaganda machine painted USA as completely benevolent in my early years. Opposite effect now.
- pms 7y ago
  Isn't this against Hacker News rules to call another user "completely brainwashed"? Brainwashing is what WSJ does since Murdoch took control over it and what mainstream Western media were doing to motivate the last deadly invasion on Iraq [1,2]. Just look at the reality. The US military killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, while the US public elected and supported its leaders who started this war by brainwashing the global population to believe their lies (and now the story repeats itself with Trump [3]). Who was/is brainwashed? [1] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/20/18274228/ari-fleischer-iraq-lies-george-w-bush-wmds https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/20/18274228/a... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/opinion/kurtz-iraq-media-failure/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/opinion/kurtz-iraq-media-fail... [3] https://theintercept.com/2019/08/14/trump-iran-worst-lies/ https://theintercept.com/2019/08/14/trump-iran-worst-lies/
brighter2morrow 7y ago
You're not African. You are Jewish.
NicoJuicy 7y ago
It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. Just wait and see, the loans you are getting ( not investments) are for Chinese workers. The loans are at 4-6% if the work isn't executed by Chinese workers. That's not an ally

jversd673 7y ago

"The difference is the Party lacks the sentimentality of western countries when it comes to issues of total surveillance and intervention to maintain control" No, the difference is hypocrisy, and of course tons of daily propaganda from the Western media / Corporations / Governments / intelligence agencies. https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/

ivanhoe 7y ago

In Serbia it was primarily Israelis who sold all of the surveillance tech to the government, and now China seems to be pushing everyone else out of the market. It really makes a very little difference to common people, one foreign actor or the other, none of the sides is really altruistic in that game...

close04 7y ago
I think this is the real problem: China/Huawei are pushing their competition out of the "support an (oppressive) regime" business. They become the go-to partner for regimes that historically relied on western or middle-eastern partners maintaining their authority.
- cm2187 7y ago
  Maybe merely a quality choice! If you want to buy a nice car, you go for a German brand, if you want fine wine, go French, if you want software, go American, if you want an orwellian mass surveillance system, you go with the country which speciality it is!
  - luzjh 7y ago
    Well said! Thanks for the gold, stranger!
  - close04 7y ago
    > if you want an orwellian mass surveillance system I think this misses the point. Countries like US or Israel are perfectly capable [0][1][2] of offering such systems. And they do because it gives them another solid "string" attached to the regime receiving it. Their problem is that now the string (and all the knowledge, power, influence that come with it) could go to China. Hence the campaign to discredit them simply by suggesting this behavior is limited to them. Putting the facts in perspective would undermine this. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-israel-s-cyber-spy-industry-aids-dictators-hunt-dissidents-and-gays-1.6573027 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-israel... [1] https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/report-saudi-arabia-used-israeli-tech-to-try-and-track-dissident-in-canada-1.6517064 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/report-saudi-arabia... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/17/how-us-surveillance-technology-is-propping-up-authoritarian-regimes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/17/how-us-sur...