13 ms·

I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian

I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. However, just like their ill-fated demonetization policy from 2016, they haven't given a whole lot of thought to what happens the day after. How long will they keep these restrictions? How far are they prepared to go if there is a mass uprising?

iamshs 7y ago
Absolute repeat of what happened in 1984 against Sikhs in Punjab. Play by Play. This is just the start of worse for Kashmir unfortunately. The young ones are in for a brutal ride especially. And no one will listen, as they are not Upper caste Hindus.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  This is why Amarinder Singh was first to condemn it
  - mandeepj 7y ago
    Amarinder is from opposition party so he had to condemn it
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      Are people not allowed to have opinions independent of their party now? There were plenty of Congresspeople who broke ranks and supported it. The opposition LS whips doing so is sad and frightening.
      - sbmthakur 7y ago
        > The opposition LS whips doing so is sad and frightening. Doesn't this comment contrast your first statement.
        selimthegrim 7y ago
        No it just means I don’t like it.
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Amarinder Singh has not condemned Indian communication lockdown or curfew and ensuing brutalities, he only condemned breaking of state into two Union Territories in an unconstitutional way. He is the same guy who supported Indian Army when they tied an innocent Kashmiri in front of a jeep and paraded him into town. His approach is very wily.
- eklavya 7y ago
  How are sikhs worse in Punjab now? The 1984 riots were perpetrated by the same people who are opposing this move.
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Indian Army's official publication, Baatcheet, asked for "Sikhs to be reported to authorities as they are dangerous criminals" in 1990. After such a blanket generalisation, Sikhs were indeed reported to authorities, and killed extra-judiciously. Mothers came to know what happened to their sons through newspapers replete with a photo of a cop getting bounty alongside the article branding her son as a militant. Just last month, 3 policemen were convicted of one such extrajudicial killing, and they were all pardoned by Punjab governor. Same governor attended a convocation ceremony where a student handed him a letter protesting the pardon of criminals, and the student was instead issued a show-cause notice of why a guest was humiliated. So nothing, it's all hunky dory in Punjab right now. BTW, this is a classic Hindu Nationalist propaganda move. Justify past excesses, whitewash them by saying everything is pleasant in the present. Also, use an ad-hominem and paint the other as an opponent instantly.
    - eklavya 7y ago
      Wow, you are on hyper drive in the entire thread. When what how did you come to the conclusions from my post? What exactly made me a propagandist? You have got to be kidding with Sikh regiment being one of the most valiant branches of Indian Army and a really high number of Indian Army soldiers per capita from Punjab. There was Pakistan sponsored terrorism in Punjab, there isn't anymore. Also citation needed for everything you said.
      - iamshs 7y ago
        I am countering propaganda, because this is personal for me. I cannot see an entire people silenced just because they are minorities, to be used to please the majority. And Sikh regiment officers and privates mutinied too when they heard of Indian Army attack on Darbar Sahib, Amritsar (Sikh Golden temple). India changed recruitment policies for these regiments soon after. Source: Understanding India's Counter-Rebellion Strategies during the Punjab Crisis - Philip Hultquist See in all the glory how Indian Government victimized Sikhs, and blatantly Indian Army asked for Sikhs to be reported to authorities, as they are dangerous people who commit arson and murder.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  I don't see any parallel. Khalistani separatism happened because Bhindranwale was propped by the Congress party to gain electoral giains. Who do you think the BJP has propped up now?
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Hindu Nationalist, BJP is quelling democracy the same exact way. Minorities curfewed and muted to satisfy lust of majority. Nobody allowed to protest, and children as young as 11 jailed without charges. Same exact type of extra-judicial killings and molestation of women. Worse, state controlled India media being used as a weapon to justify all the excesses to the Indian masses. Manufacturing consent. It don't matter you cannot get Asthma medicine or Insulin, but believe is this all will help you in the end. What a democracy to look up to.
    - sbmthakur 7y ago
      > Hindu Nationalist, BJP is quelling democracy the same exact way. Minorities curfewed and muted to satisfy lust of majority. Minorities are not curfew anywhere in India. In Kashmir, Muslims are in majority. > Nobody allowed to protest, and children as young as 11 jailed without charges. Same exact type of extra-judicial killings and molestation of women. I don't recall that happening after the curfew was put in place. Could you share some news reports? > Worse, state controlled India media being used as a weapon to justify all the excesses to the Indian masses. Manufacturing consent. I haven't seen DD News justifying anything. They're just reporting what they're seeing.
kobiguru 7y ago
Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark. The change is not like demonetisation rather a well thought and long-held demand of the present government. It has been there in the election manifesto since they started publishing election manifesto. The new york times is entitled to its view on how India's elected government ought to run the country but that does not mean the government is going to forgo one of THE demands of the party founders. The other thing that is ignored is that for seventy years Kashmir has gotten the biggest share of the central government's outlays for states and they have nothing to show for. Doing the same thing expecting a different result is bad in any environment. I am not sure if this will work or not but what I am sure is that the previous status quo did not work. Moreover, how long would the entire state's ambition be held hostage because of an intolerant minority in four districts in the Kashmir valley? Edit: "Intorelent Minority" comes from Taleb's essay/book on the skin in the game here is the link here is what I meant by Intorelant minority. I am sorry if It came as bigoted but I would call any small group of people this https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- owaislone 7y ago
  Here come the apologists. How can such a step be justified when the 12 million people did not vote for the said election manifesto? It's like saying UK is justified in annexing all of Ireland because people in England voted for it.
  - tech_dreamer 7y ago
    If you are not aware please read the following article to get a complete picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus
    - iamshs 7y ago
      Oh god, Wikipedia has been taken over. Just look at the language and sources. All actions by India have been sugar coated with flowery language. Governor’s rule and Marshall Law is written as, “This allowed Governor Jagmohan to rule directly”. Not mentioning the fact that he dismissed a democratically elected government on a ruse.
Arun2009 7y ago
> I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. Abrogation of Kashmir's special status has been a top agenda of the BJP for the past few decades. They are pretty big on "national unity", and they see the special status for Kashmir as going against this principle. They want Kashmir fully integrated into India once and for all. They also consider the indecision about Kashmir's status in India as being a prime cause for terrorism in that region. Kicking the muslims has very little to do with it. Whether this step will backfire remains to be seen. Indians will have to ask some very tough questions about what kind of nation they want India to be, and whether the vision they come up with will be viable at all given the nature of the Indian society.
- iamshs 7y ago
  You know what else has been a top agenda for BJP? Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan. That is, single language, single religion, single nation. BJP is a Hindu Nationalist party, and just because it is in their manifesto doesn’t mean it should have been fulfilled. The question to ask is, why is in their manifesto when there are other regions in India with similar laws? It is in their manifesto because Kashmir is a Muslim majority region. And BJP considers, Muslims and Christians as invaders and pests. This manifesto point is just utter bunkum to placate their Hindu Nationalistic base since 1950s, they finally got to fulfill it since they have the numbers and money power now. For the first time since India gained independence.
  - eklavya 7y ago
    “Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan”, this takes Hindu as identity like American and not a religion. “When there are other regions ...”, no, laws passed by the parliament were applicable everywhere except in Kashmir. So you had gems like child marriage not outlawed. It’s lazy and biased journalism to just label them Hindu nationalists and portray them like some sort of evil overlords. India for centuries has been the most inclusive place in the world. Let’s not try and paint the majority as some kind of a clan of idiot oppressors.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
amalag 7y ago
I think its pretty clear you pulled that out of your fertile imagination.
thanks1banks2 7y ago
India is a secular state. We treat all religions with equal respect. This is in the constitution. This issue is an internal matter following due process within our parliamentary framework.
- iamshs 7y ago
  If India is so secular why is there a tax law called Hindu Undivided Family or HUF, which Muslims cannot use to reduce their taxable income? How can a damn tax law be applicable on basis of religion? If it is so secular then why does Indian Constitution term Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs under Hindu religion umbrella. Since when is it for the constitution to define religions? If India is so secular than why does it ban beef, sacred animal only to Hindus? If it is so secular then why does it welcome Hindu refugees from Pakistan and expels Muslim Rohingya refugees?
  - la12 7y ago
    I'm not sure why you're avoiding talking about the role of Pakistan in creating the whole conflict in Kashmir. Pakistan invented out of the whole cloth an armed struggle aspect to the Kashmir situation. It's extremely convenient on your part to talk pointwise all the Pakistani talking points and yet avoid talking about the 90% causative factor in this entire mess.
  - vakataka 7y ago
    FYI, Indian Muslims have their own personal law while the rest of the population follows uniform civil code. They get Hajj subsidies and other perks that no other community gets. As for taking refugees, a country can deny entry based on any number of reasons. In 2018, the number of refugees taken in by the US has gone down. That doesn't mean US is less secular. I agree Indian constitution is not the most secular but it definitely is not anti-minority.
    - iamshs 7y ago
      Hindus are also given subsidies for travel to their religious sites, inside India and to China. Mansarovar Lake and Amarnath pilgrimage. So that is one propaganda point of yours busted. Let's bust the second point: Why are only Muslim refugees being expelled, and why is there a specific citizenship law that gives Indian citizenship to Hindus and excludes Muslims?
cscurmudgeon 7y ago
I can't understand how anyone who stands for gender equality and minority rights can support Kashmir being autonomous. This move by the Indian government is objectively good for minorities (Christians, Hindus, Jains etc) and women in the state. https://www.dailyo.in/voices/article-35a-women-in-kashmir-fundamental-rights-kashmir-constitution-feminists-feminism-kashmir-kashmiri-hindus-dalits-pakistani-hindu-refugees-kashmiri-sikhs-women-s-rights/story/1/30216.html https://www.dailyo.in/voices/article-35a-women-in-kashmir-fu... Kashmir had 70 years to rectify this after Independence but to chose to double down on ethnic cleansing of minorities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus
- iamshs 7y ago
  Because gender equality and minority rights points are being used as a greenhorn to subjugate an entire minority. Article 370 giving them autonomy is gone, and not only their autonomy is gone but the state has been degraded as a Union Territory directly under Federal control. A law which has been abrogated by locking down 10 Million people, and not allowing them the right to protest. I think we all know why the law has been forced in.
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    Kashmir wasn't exactly a peaceful paradise before the abrogation of the article. Stone pelting was a regular affair and long term curfew has been enforced previously in 2008 and after Burhan Wani's death. The Federal Government has to ensure security of the people to prevent bloodshed.
    - iamshs 7y ago
      Ah, security of people trope. Good to know so much security has been ensured 10 million people are caged.
      - sbmthakur 7y ago
        It might be a trope for you, but not for the people who routinely get gunned down by Pakistan backed terrorists and incur significant bloodshed in the process.
sbmthakur 7y ago
That's false. Demonization is not relevant to any of this. Article 370 was a temporary provision in the Constitution. It's removal was on BJP's agenda since 80s. India's founding founders like B.R. Ambedkar were also somewhat against having seperate set of rules for J&K. The most likely reason for it's removal is that Article 370 still protected regressive practices like Triple Talaq and Child marriage and created a beaurocratic roadblock in implementation of Federal Government schemes(like reservation). The claim that this was done to subvert state's Muslim majority doesn't hold merit. India has states like Punjab, Nagaland and Mizoram which don't have Hindu majority and are still doing well.

iamshs 7y ago

Absolute repeat of what happened in 1984 against Sikhs in Punjab. Play by Play. This is just the start of worse for Kashmir unfortunately. The young ones are in for a brutal ride especially. And no one will listen, as they are not Upper caste Hindus.

selimthegrim 7y ago
This is why Amarinder Singh was first to condemn it
- mandeepj 7y ago
  Amarinder is from opposition party so he had to condemn it
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Are people not allowed to have opinions independent of their party now? There were plenty of Congresspeople who broke ranks and supported it. The opposition LS whips doing so is sad and frightening.
    - sbmthakur 7y ago
      > The opposition LS whips doing so is sad and frightening. Doesn't this comment contrast your first statement.
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        No it just means I don’t like it.
- iamshs 7y ago
  Amarinder Singh has not condemned Indian communication lockdown or curfew and ensuing brutalities, he only condemned breaking of state into two Union Territories in an unconstitutional way. He is the same guy who supported Indian Army when they tied an innocent Kashmiri in front of a jeep and paraded him into town. His approach is very wily.
eklavya 7y ago
How are sikhs worse in Punjab now? The 1984 riots were perpetrated by the same people who are opposing this move.
- iamshs 7y ago
  Indian Army's official publication, Baatcheet, asked for "Sikhs to be reported to authorities as they are dangerous criminals" in 1990. After such a blanket generalisation, Sikhs were indeed reported to authorities, and killed extra-judiciously. Mothers came to know what happened to their sons through newspapers replete with a photo of a cop getting bounty alongside the article branding her son as a militant. Just last month, 3 policemen were convicted of one such extrajudicial killing, and they were all pardoned by Punjab governor. Same governor attended a convocation ceremony where a student handed him a letter protesting the pardon of criminals, and the student was instead issued a show-cause notice of why a guest was humiliated. So nothing, it's all hunky dory in Punjab right now. BTW, this is a classic Hindu Nationalist propaganda move. Justify past excesses, whitewash them by saying everything is pleasant in the present. Also, use an ad-hominem and paint the other as an opponent instantly.
  - eklavya 7y ago
    Wow, you are on hyper drive in the entire thread. When what how did you come to the conclusions from my post? What exactly made me a propagandist? You have got to be kidding with Sikh regiment being one of the most valiant branches of Indian Army and a really high number of Indian Army soldiers per capita from Punjab. There was Pakistan sponsored terrorism in Punjab, there isn't anymore. Also citation needed for everything you said.
    - iamshs 7y ago
      I am countering propaganda, because this is personal for me. I cannot see an entire people silenced just because they are minorities, to be used to please the majority. And Sikh regiment officers and privates mutinied too when they heard of Indian Army attack on Darbar Sahib, Amritsar (Sikh Golden temple). India changed recruitment policies for these regiments soon after. Source: Understanding India's Counter-Rebellion Strategies during the Punjab Crisis - Philip Hultquist See in all the glory how Indian Government victimized Sikhs, and blatantly Indian Army asked for Sikhs to be reported to authorities, as they are dangerous people who commit arson and murder.
sbmthakur 7y ago
I don't see any parallel. Khalistani separatism happened because Bhindranwale was propped by the Congress party to gain electoral giains. Who do you think the BJP has propped up now?
- iamshs 7y ago
  Hindu Nationalist, BJP is quelling democracy the same exact way. Minorities curfewed and muted to satisfy lust of majority. Nobody allowed to protest, and children as young as 11 jailed without charges. Same exact type of extra-judicial killings and molestation of women. Worse, state controlled India media being used as a weapon to justify all the excesses to the Indian masses. Manufacturing consent. It don't matter you cannot get Asthma medicine or Insulin, but believe is this all will help you in the end. What a democracy to look up to.
  - sbmthakur 7y ago
    > Hindu Nationalist, BJP is quelling democracy the same exact way. Minorities curfewed and muted to satisfy lust of majority. Minorities are not curfew anywhere in India. In Kashmir, Muslims are in majority. > Nobody allowed to protest, and children as young as 11 jailed without charges. Same exact type of extra-judicial killings and molestation of women. I don't recall that happening after the curfew was put in place. Could you share some news reports? > Worse, state controlled India media being used as a weapon to justify all the excesses to the Indian masses. Manufacturing consent. I haven't seen DD News justifying anything. They're just reporting what they're seeing.

kobiguru 7y ago

Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark. The change is not like demonetisation rather a well thought and long-held demand of the present government. It has been there in the election manifesto since they started publishing election manifesto. The new york times is entitled to its view on how India's elected government ought to run the country but that does not mean the government is going to forgo one of THE demands of the party founders. The other thing that is ignored is that for seventy years Kashmir has gotten the biggest share of the central government's outlays for states and they have nothing to show for. Doing the same thing expecting a different result is bad in any environment. I am not sure if this will work or not but what I am sure is that the previous status quo did not work. Moreover, how long would the entire state's ambition be held hostage because of an intolerant minority in four districts in the Kashmir valley? Edit: "Intorelent Minority" comes from Taleb's essay/book on the skin in the game here is the link here is what I meant by Intorelant minority. I am sorry if It came as bigoted but I would call any small group of people this https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

owaislone 7y ago
Here come the apologists. How can such a step be justified when the 12 million people did not vote for the said election manifesto? It's like saying UK is justified in annexing all of Ireland because people in England voted for it.
- tech_dreamer 7y ago
  If you are not aware please read the following article to get a complete picture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Oh god, Wikipedia has been taken over. Just look at the language and sources. All actions by India have been sugar coated with flowery language. Governor’s rule and Marshall Law is written as, “This allowed Governor Jagmohan to rule directly”. Not mentioning the fact that he dismissed a democratically elected government on a ruse.

Arun2009 7y ago

> I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. Abrogation of Kashmir's special status has been a top agenda of the BJP for the past few decades. They are pretty big on "national unity", and they see the special status for Kashmir as going against this principle. They want Kashmir fully integrated into India once and for all. They also consider the indecision about Kashmir's status in India as being a prime cause for terrorism in that region. Kicking the muslims has very little to do with it. Whether this step will backfire remains to be seen. Indians will have to ask some very tough questions about what kind of nation they want India to be, and whether the vision they come up with will be viable at all given the nature of the Indian society.

iamshs 7y ago
You know what else has been a top agenda for BJP? Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan. That is, single language, single religion, single nation. BJP is a Hindu Nationalist party, and just because it is in their manifesto doesn’t mean it should have been fulfilled. The question to ask is, why is in their manifesto when there are other regions in India with similar laws? It is in their manifesto because Kashmir is a Muslim majority region. And BJP considers, Muslims and Christians as invaders and pests. This manifesto point is just utter bunkum to placate their Hindu Nationalistic base since 1950s, they finally got to fulfill it since they have the numbers and money power now. For the first time since India gained independence.
- eklavya 7y ago
  “Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan”, this takes Hindu as identity like American and not a religion. “When there are other regions ...”, no, laws passed by the parliament were applicable everywhere except in Kashmir. So you had gems like child marriage not outlawed. It’s lazy and biased journalism to just label them Hindu nationalists and portray them like some sort of evil overlords. India for centuries has been the most inclusive place in the world. Let’s not try and paint the majority as some kind of a clan of idiot oppressors.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

amalag 7y ago

I think its pretty clear you pulled that out of your fertile imagination.

thanks1banks2 7y ago

India is a secular state. We treat all religions with equal respect. This is in the constitution. This issue is an internal matter following due process within our parliamentary framework.

iamshs 7y ago
If India is so secular why is there a tax law called Hindu Undivided Family or HUF, which Muslims cannot use to reduce their taxable income? How can a damn tax law be applicable on basis of religion? If it is so secular then why does Indian Constitution term Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs under Hindu religion umbrella. Since when is it for the constitution to define religions? If India is so secular than why does it ban beef, sacred animal only to Hindus? If it is so secular then why does it welcome Hindu refugees from Pakistan and expels Muslim Rohingya refugees?
- la12 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you're avoiding talking about the role of Pakistan in creating the whole conflict in Kashmir. Pakistan invented out of the whole cloth an armed struggle aspect to the Kashmir situation. It's extremely convenient on your part to talk pointwise all the Pakistani talking points and yet avoid talking about the 90% causative factor in this entire mess.
- vakataka 7y ago
  FYI, Indian Muslims have their own personal law while the rest of the population follows uniform civil code. They get Hajj subsidies and other perks that no other community gets. As for taking refugees, a country can deny entry based on any number of reasons. In 2018, the number of refugees taken in by the US has gone down. That doesn't mean US is less secular. I agree Indian constitution is not the most secular but it definitely is not anti-minority.
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Hindus are also given subsidies for travel to their religious sites, inside India and to China. Mansarovar Lake and Amarnath pilgrimage. So that is one propaganda point of yours busted. Let's bust the second point: Why are only Muslim refugees being expelled, and why is there a specific citizenship law that gives Indian citizenship to Hindus and excludes Muslims?

cscurmudgeon 7y ago

I can't understand how anyone who stands for gender equality and minority rights can support Kashmir being autonomous. This move by the Indian government is objectively good for minorities (Christians, Hindus, Jains etc) and women in the state. https://www.dailyo.in/voices/article-35a-women-in-kashmir-fundamental-rights-kashmir-constitution-feminists-feminism-kashmir-kashmiri-hindus-dalits-pakistani-hindu-refugees-kashmiri-sikhs-women-s-rights/story/1/30216.html https://www.dailyo.in/voices/article-35a-women-in-kashmir-fu... Kashmir had 70 years to rectify this after Independence but to chose to double down on ethnic cleansing of minorities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus

iamshs 7y ago
Because gender equality and minority rights points are being used as a greenhorn to subjugate an entire minority. Article 370 giving them autonomy is gone, and not only their autonomy is gone but the state has been degraded as a Union Territory directly under Federal control. A law which has been abrogated by locking down 10 Million people, and not allowing them the right to protest. I think we all know why the law has been forced in.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  Kashmir wasn't exactly a peaceful paradise before the abrogation of the article. Stone pelting was a regular affair and long term curfew has been enforced previously in 2008 and after Burhan Wani's death. The Federal Government has to ensure security of the people to prevent bloodshed.
  - iamshs 7y ago
    Ah, security of people trope. Good to know so much security has been ensured 10 million people are caged.
    - sbmthakur 7y ago
      It might be a trope for you, but not for the people who routinely get gunned down by Pakistan backed terrorists and incur significant bloodshed in the process.

sbmthakur 7y ago

That's false. Demonization is not relevant to any of this. Article 370 was a temporary provision in the Constitution. It's removal was on BJP's agenda since 80s. India's founding founders like B.R. Ambedkar were also somewhat against having seperate set of rules for J&K. The most likely reason for it's removal is that Article 370 still protected regressive practices like Triple Talaq and Child marriage and created a beaurocratic roadblock in implementation of Federal Government schemes(like reservation). The claim that this was done to subvert state's Muslim majority doesn't hold merit. India has states like Punjab, Nagaland and Mizoram which don't have Hindu majority and are still doing well.