6 ms·

Last weekend I met a person that was convinced the US government protects "the edge". I told him that was very interesting.

munk-a 7y ago
I don't think there is anything you can do when interacting with these people outside of smiling and nodding - so I'm sad to see you get downvotes. This is actually a really big problem for me as I find it physically discomforting to listen to lies being spoken unopposed.
- cmurf 7y ago
  You can tell them you think they're delusional, or make it slightly less personal and say what they've said is delusional (linguistically incorrect but a compromise). I mean, it really isn't your responsibility to coddle their emotional state by staying silent. Anyway, I've done both, in public, and the result is interesting. I felt slightly guilty because the person will take great offense even though usually they don't get riled up about it. But at the same time it was less uncomfortable than listening to unopposed lies. Diplomacy provides for ample indirection: I'm so sorry to inform you so directly, I mean no offense, but what you're saying is completely unprovable, you have no facts at all that can demonstrate your position. I do appreciate your bravery for being willing to expose your ignorance on this topic so publicly, however. Et cetera.
  - abruzzi 7y ago
    I think it’s less about “coddling their emotional state” and more about the futility of getting dragged into argument with no end. It reminds me of the saying, attributed to Mark Twain, among others: “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
    - cmurf 7y ago
      Great quote. I'll say that out loud next time. I'm content with letting an idiot think I'm the idiot.
    - PaulAJ 7y ago
      Or the other variant, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in muck, but the pig likes it." https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/07/08/pig/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/07/08/pig/
- everybodyknows 7y ago
  I used to see it that way. Now I remind myself that for nearly all of us, there are certain truths never to be acknowledged. Such encounters are a rate opportunity to gain first-hand insight on someone else's particular set of unbearable truths. Maybe start with "What whole-Earth map would you recommend?"
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Part of this is totally legitimate, we all have limited knowledge and unfortunately in America being stubborn and an ability to BS is pretty much taught in schools... but there is a range of people here. At one extreme there are people, who, when their misconceptions are challenged, can admit they were wrong and have no hesitancy to voice their ignorance on a subject - at the other extreme are people who never want to be wrong and go to lengths to dismiss anything they observe that would invalidate their beliefs. Then we have the trouble causers that delight in the ignorance of others and reinforce misconceptions either out of pure joy or to monetize those misconceptions - either way just being terrible trolls. I feel like the earth being round is such a generally accepted fact that anyone still clinging to flat-eartherism is either a troll or quite close to the extreme of that spectrum and I don't think it's worth my time to deal with those people - and I get that, it's sort of a mean stance to take but... I don't know, there's enough stuff I have to do in life - I'd rather not devote the effort into trying to convince someone who might just be trolling for the hell of it.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Learn how to talk to people without respecting them. Once you've got it down, you can eviscerate this sort of person in public without getting your hands wet.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    I'd appreciate you clarifying "eviscerate" here, if you mean you can convince them the earth is round then hooray - but there are some incredibly stubborn people out there so I really doubt your prowess... More likely I assume that by "eviscerate" you mean that you can walk away from the conversation feeling like it's impossible for a rational person to disagree with what you said - that's certainly a nice feeling for you but I strongly doubt you're having any significant impact on their beliefs.
    - lidHanteyk 7y ago
      Think like Marvin the Paranoid Android. It's not about your beliefs or emotions, but those of the person that you're talking to. Your goal isn't to feel good about yourself, but to be confident that they cannot feel good about their position in light of what's been brought up.
  - LyndsySimon 7y ago
    Speaking to someone without respect for them or their views isn't going to change their minds - ever. I have a "flat earther" friend on Facebook. I didn't know that about him until after I'd already friended him, but he posts about it constantly. After an initial private message of "Are you for real?", I've made it a point to as mildly as possible point out the obvious logical fallacies in the things he posts. I don't expect I'll ever change his mind - it's possible, but you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. Instead, I'd just like to have him see inconsistencies in what others who believe what he believes say. Over time I'm hoping that will at the very least keep it from spreading.
    - deeng 7y ago
      > ... but you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. I'm living proof that this isn't true. I was a Young Earth Creationist for nearly 30 years, despite having an engineering degree from one of the world's best universities. I no longer believe in anything supernatural. It took a very long time, but I was eventually reasoned out of a position I wasn't reasoned into. When people incorporate ideology into their identity, challenging the ideology directly is often interpreted as a personal attack or something else not worth honestly engaging with. A far better approach is to examine the methods people use to reach conclusions. There's a conversation technique called Street Epistemology that does exactly that. IMHO, it's the most productive way to have these kind of conversions.

munk-a 7y ago

I don't think there is anything you can do when interacting with these people outside of smiling and nodding - so I'm sad to see you get downvotes. This is actually a really big problem for me as I find it physically discomforting to listen to lies being spoken unopposed.

cmurf 7y ago
You can tell them you think they're delusional, or make it slightly less personal and say what they've said is delusional (linguistically incorrect but a compromise). I mean, it really isn't your responsibility to coddle their emotional state by staying silent. Anyway, I've done both, in public, and the result is interesting. I felt slightly guilty because the person will take great offense even though usually they don't get riled up about it. But at the same time it was less uncomfortable than listening to unopposed lies. Diplomacy provides for ample indirection: I'm so sorry to inform you so directly, I mean no offense, but what you're saying is completely unprovable, you have no facts at all that can demonstrate your position. I do appreciate your bravery for being willing to expose your ignorance on this topic so publicly, however. Et cetera.
- abruzzi 7y ago
  I think it’s less about “coddling their emotional state” and more about the futility of getting dragged into argument with no end. It reminds me of the saying, attributed to Mark Twain, among others: “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
  - cmurf 7y ago
    Great quote. I'll say that out loud next time. I'm content with letting an idiot think I'm the idiot.
  - PaulAJ 7y ago
    Or the other variant, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in muck, but the pig likes it." https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/07/08/pig/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/07/08/pig/
everybodyknows 7y ago
I used to see it that way. Now I remind myself that for nearly all of us, there are certain truths never to be acknowledged. Such encounters are a rate opportunity to gain first-hand insight on someone else's particular set of unbearable truths. Maybe start with "What whole-Earth map would you recommend?"
- munk-a 7y ago
  Part of this is totally legitimate, we all have limited knowledge and unfortunately in America being stubborn and an ability to BS is pretty much taught in schools... but there is a range of people here. At one extreme there are people, who, when their misconceptions are challenged, can admit they were wrong and have no hesitancy to voice their ignorance on a subject - at the other extreme are people who never want to be wrong and go to lengths to dismiss anything they observe that would invalidate their beliefs. Then we have the trouble causers that delight in the ignorance of others and reinforce misconceptions either out of pure joy or to monetize those misconceptions - either way just being terrible trolls. I feel like the earth being round is such a generally accepted fact that anyone still clinging to flat-eartherism is either a troll or quite close to the extreme of that spectrum and I don't think it's worth my time to deal with those people - and I get that, it's sort of a mean stance to take but... I don't know, there's enough stuff I have to do in life - I'd rather not devote the effort into trying to convince someone who might just be trolling for the hell of it.
lidHanteyk 7y ago
Learn how to talk to people without respecting them. Once you've got it down, you can eviscerate this sort of person in public without getting your hands wet.
- munk-a 7y ago
  I'd appreciate you clarifying "eviscerate" here, if you mean you can convince them the earth is round then hooray - but there are some incredibly stubborn people out there so I really doubt your prowess... More likely I assume that by "eviscerate" you mean that you can walk away from the conversation feeling like it's impossible for a rational person to disagree with what you said - that's certainly a nice feeling for you but I strongly doubt you're having any significant impact on their beliefs.
  - lidHanteyk 7y ago
    Think like Marvin the Paranoid Android. It's not about your beliefs or emotions, but those of the person that you're talking to. Your goal isn't to feel good about yourself, but to be confident that they cannot feel good about their position in light of what's been brought up.
- LyndsySimon 7y ago
  Speaking to someone without respect for them or their views isn't going to change their minds - ever. I have a "flat earther" friend on Facebook. I didn't know that about him until after I'd already friended him, but he posts about it constantly. After an initial private message of "Are you for real?", I've made it a point to as mildly as possible point out the obvious logical fallacies in the things he posts. I don't expect I'll ever change his mind - it's possible, but you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. Instead, I'd just like to have him see inconsistencies in what others who believe what he believes say. Over time I'm hoping that will at the very least keep it from spreading.
  - deeng 7y ago
    > ... but you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. I'm living proof that this isn't true. I was a Young Earth Creationist for nearly 30 years, despite having an engineering degree from one of the world's best universities. I no longer believe in anything supernatural. It took a very long time, but I was eventually reasoned out of a position I wasn't reasoned into. When people incorporate ideology into their identity, challenging the ideology directly is often interpreted as a personal attack or something else not worth honestly engaging with. A far better approach is to examine the methods people use to reach conclusions. There's a conversation technique called Street Epistemology that does exactly that. IMHO, it's the most productive way to have these kind of conversions.