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I think the rational definition of Deep State is just the government “lifers” who stay in significant spheres of influence for most of their career. I.e. key de

I think the rational definition of Deep State is just the government “lifers” who stay in significant spheres of influence for most of their career. I.e. key defense, intelligence, financial, etc positions.

dragontamer 7y ago
The problem is that "Deep State" is a loaded term. You could very well argue that the N-word is a historically accurate (and Latin) way to describe African Americans. Instead of using "Deep State", it might be better to say "Agency Directors", if you wanted to use neutral language. "Deep State" is loaded. Of course, its more popular these days to value-signal which side of an argument you're on, rather than appearing neutral... In any effect, the people who use the word "Deep State" wish to imply that government workers have their own agendas. In my experience however, government workers overwhelmingly just want to do a good job with the task they've been assigned (much like any other human who are tasked with a job).
- ryacko 7y ago
  So you don’t have to play ball in order to be cycled from public sector to private sector to high level government positions along with the attendant corporate lobbying to Congress on approving various government positions? It’s a pipeline and someone has their hands on the valves.
  - kaitai 7y ago
    I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate? For instance, in Washington DC there is certainly a pipeline from public to private to high level to lobbying to etc., but I think what the +parent posters is referring to encompasses the scientists at the EPA and the USDA, the doctors and nurses and managers at the VA, etc etc. They tend to get a job there after a bit of moving around and then stay 40 years. There is no trading out to private sector -- they generally get a gov't job because of a combined desire for altruism and good benefits and stability -- and the vast majority would never even be offered, much less accept, a lobbying position. Source: family in such positions, who just want to examine and regulate the wastewater output of cheese factories in the heartland and go home after a good day's work. Said member was forced out of their job recently due to politics -- not "business-friendly" enough.
    - ryacko 7y ago
      You do realize I’m replying to a post about how the more relevant term is “Agency Directors”? Now you’re replying to me about high-level HR decisions biasing the processes of government agencies. I don’t think there is anything to elaborate?
- vinay427 7y ago
  The "real" N-word is also similar to or identical to today's equivalents in Germanic languages (e.g. German, Dutch).
  - lowdose 7y ago
    Also in Dutch you can't use the equivalent anymore. People of color take offense by it.
    - fdjlasdfjl 7y ago
      Well yeah. We've basically been playing whack-a-mole with racists for hundreds of years. There will be another word after this one because racists will find another word to use as a pejorative.
    - legacynl 7y ago
      They have always taken offense to it, we just used to not care.
  - carlmr 7y ago
    At least in German it's not used anymore, since it sounds similar enough to the English version everybody knows.
    - vinay427 7y ago
      Right, sorry, I live in a German-speaking place so I'm aware. I was just trying to add that this form of it is far from unique to English and Latin.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    It has a totally different meaning, but one that makes it much more common ('no but', iirc), so I had quite a surprise arriving at a Mandarin lesson one day!
- thwythwy 7y ago
  The second sentence in your post is so alarmingly inappropriate that I can't focus on anything else.
  - digitaltrees 7y ago
    Why is it offensive. What is the word for the color black in Spanish? Does the color black have a negative connotation? Or did racist cultural attitudes turn what was a neutral term in to a highly charged weapon of oppression. I think the OPs point was “deep state” has a deliberate, highly charged, negative connotation. Don’t conflate the horrible reality of racism with the historical origin of a racial insult. The OP is merely using it as an example to illustrate how terms acquire meaning through time and social norms. Not excuse their existence.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    The N word is simply the Latin word for black. It was probably used a lot by Latin, and maybe medieval age scholars to describe lots of things in a non-racist way. The issue is that MODERN racists have decided that the N-word is an insult to a subset of the community. As such, the N-word has become an insult. My point is that words have meaning based on who uses the word. The N-word is used by racists and is now avoided by polite society (unless you wish to explicitly label yourself a racist) "Deep State" is used by conspiracy theorists who wish to destroy government workers and their positions. Its a phrase that should be avoided unless you wish to paint yourself a conspiracy theorist.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ashelmire 7y ago
It's a term meant to slander professionals and imply that we should constantly rotate in the current political favorites into positions for which they are not qualified.
- koolba 7y ago
  Alternatively we should allow career professionals to act as a dampener on the will of the people when it does not align with their own views.
  - ashelmire 7y ago
    What exactly are you asserting? I get that you're reiterating the Trump talking point about "Deep State" nonsense, but the majority of people in this nation have voted for Democratic candidates in the last several elections, including both 2016 and 2018. If anything, the electoral college and gerrymandering are what dampen the will of the people.
    - koolba 7y ago
      The outcome of the electoral college is de facto the will of the people. Similarly, any unelected bureaucrat working in the executive branch that pursues their personal agenda or tries to slow progress on the plans of the duly elected executive is de facto going against said will of the people.
      - ashelmire 7y ago
        So let’s get what you’re saying: the will of the people is reflected in the person who got less votes winning, because of archaic rules created by ancient oligarchs? That is cognitive dissonance of the highest order.
jjwhitaker 7y ago
"Deep state" is a conspiracy theorist level term for some underground, underhanded Hoover/FBI style group that doesn't exist or is really just career officials, most of whom have left the administration especially the state department. This has left a massive shortage in expertise and qualified or cleared workers slowing down how the government can handle ongoing processes/projects and new issues like the many foreign policy blunders and embarrassments Trump and his often unqualified appointees have made. The trade war is one such blunder that no responsible and informed person thought would do any good long term but was spun as a hard core negotiation tactic. Tariffs are import taxes charged mostly to residents and businesses in the home country or passed to the consumer by the importing firm. This short term harms everyone but could be the straw that pushes a close deal to be ratified. Unfortunately, we didn't have a close deal beyond the TPP and this wasn't a cooperative negotiation but one of necessity framed as USA vs China. It was never a smart move and was recommended against by nearly all experts or those with experience in the matter and we have reached the logical conclusion of such policies to find that there is no deep state outside of conspiracy forums and our economic outlook and foreign policy is a dumpster fire as Trump is not rational but likely narcissistic and mislead or misinformed by his staff to ignore reality such as the looming economic crisis.
walshemj 7y ago
Not really most of the senior civil service are political appointees in the USA.
cat199 7y ago
agree or disagree with the actual existence, but this definition ignores politically active people in politically important and politically connected non-governmental institutions e.g. media, finance, think tanks, unions, etc, which i think is implied by at least some when using this term..

dragontamer 7y ago

The problem is that "Deep State" is a loaded term. You could very well argue that the N-word is a historically accurate (and Latin) way to describe African Americans. Instead of using "Deep State", it might be better to say "Agency Directors", if you wanted to use neutral language. "Deep State" is loaded. Of course, its more popular these days to value-signal which side of an argument you're on, rather than appearing neutral... In any effect, the people who use the word "Deep State" wish to imply that government workers have their own agendas. In my experience however, government workers overwhelmingly just want to do a good job with the task they've been assigned (much like any other human who are tasked with a job).

ryacko 7y ago
So you don’t have to play ball in order to be cycled from public sector to private sector to high level government positions along with the attendant corporate lobbying to Congress on approving various government positions? It’s a pipeline and someone has their hands on the valves.
- kaitai 7y ago
  I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate? For instance, in Washington DC there is certainly a pipeline from public to private to high level to lobbying to etc., but I think what the +parent posters is referring to encompasses the scientists at the EPA and the USDA, the doctors and nurses and managers at the VA, etc etc. They tend to get a job there after a bit of moving around and then stay 40 years. There is no trading out to private sector -- they generally get a gov't job because of a combined desire for altruism and good benefits and stability -- and the vast majority would never even be offered, much less accept, a lobbying position. Source: family in such positions, who just want to examine and regulate the wastewater output of cheese factories in the heartland and go home after a good day's work. Said member was forced out of their job recently due to politics -- not "business-friendly" enough.
  - ryacko 7y ago
    You do realize I’m replying to a post about how the more relevant term is “Agency Directors”? Now you’re replying to me about high-level HR decisions biasing the processes of government agencies. I don’t think there is anything to elaborate?
vinay427 7y ago
The "real" N-word is also similar to or identical to today's equivalents in Germanic languages (e.g. German, Dutch).
- lowdose 7y ago
  Also in Dutch you can't use the equivalent anymore. People of color take offense by it.
  - fdjlasdfjl 7y ago
    Well yeah. We've basically been playing whack-a-mole with racists for hundreds of years. There will be another word after this one because racists will find another word to use as a pejorative.
  - legacynl 7y ago
    They have always taken offense to it, we just used to not care.
- carlmr 7y ago
  At least in German it's not used anymore, since it sounds similar enough to the English version everybody knows.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    Right, sorry, I live in a German-speaking place so I'm aware. I was just trying to add that this form of it is far from unique to English and Latin.
- OJFord 7y ago
  It has a totally different meaning, but one that makes it much more common ('no but', iirc), so I had quite a surprise arriving at a Mandarin lesson one day!
thwythwy 7y ago
The second sentence in your post is so alarmingly inappropriate that I can't focus on anything else.
- digitaltrees 7y ago
  Why is it offensive. What is the word for the color black in Spanish? Does the color black have a negative connotation? Or did racist cultural attitudes turn what was a neutral term in to a highly charged weapon of oppression. I think the OPs point was “deep state” has a deliberate, highly charged, negative connotation. Don’t conflate the horrible reality of racism with the historical origin of a racial insult. The OP is merely using it as an example to illustrate how terms acquire meaning through time and social norms. Not excuse their existence.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  The N word is simply the Latin word for black. It was probably used a lot by Latin, and maybe medieval age scholars to describe lots of things in a non-racist way. The issue is that MODERN racists have decided that the N-word is an insult to a subset of the community. As such, the N-word has become an insult. My point is that words have meaning based on who uses the word. The N-word is used by racists and is now avoided by polite society (unless you wish to explicitly label yourself a racist) "Deep State" is used by conspiracy theorists who wish to destroy government workers and their positions. Its a phrase that should be avoided unless you wish to paint yourself a conspiracy theorist.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ashelmire 7y ago

It's a term meant to slander professionals and imply that we should constantly rotate in the current political favorites into positions for which they are not qualified.

koolba 7y ago
Alternatively we should allow career professionals to act as a dampener on the will of the people when it does not align with their own views.
- ashelmire 7y ago
  What exactly are you asserting? I get that you're reiterating the Trump talking point about "Deep State" nonsense, but the majority of people in this nation have voted for Democratic candidates in the last several elections, including both 2016 and 2018. If anything, the electoral college and gerrymandering are what dampen the will of the people.
  - koolba 7y ago
    The outcome of the electoral college is de facto the will of the people. Similarly, any unelected bureaucrat working in the executive branch that pursues their personal agenda or tries to slow progress on the plans of the duly elected executive is de facto going against said will of the people.
    - ashelmire 7y ago
      So let’s get what you’re saying: the will of the people is reflected in the person who got less votes winning, because of archaic rules created by ancient oligarchs? That is cognitive dissonance of the highest order.

jjwhitaker 7y ago

"Deep state" is a conspiracy theorist level term for some underground, underhanded Hoover/FBI style group that doesn't exist or is really just career officials, most of whom have left the administration especially the state department. This has left a massive shortage in expertise and qualified or cleared workers slowing down how the government can handle ongoing processes/projects and new issues like the many foreign policy blunders and embarrassments Trump and his often unqualified appointees have made. The trade war is one such blunder that no responsible and informed person thought would do any good long term but was spun as a hard core negotiation tactic. Tariffs are import taxes charged mostly to residents and businesses in the home country or passed to the consumer by the importing firm. This short term harms everyone but could be the straw that pushes a close deal to be ratified. Unfortunately, we didn't have a close deal beyond the TPP and this wasn't a cooperative negotiation but one of necessity framed as USA vs China. It was never a smart move and was recommended against by nearly all experts or those with experience in the matter and we have reached the logical conclusion of such policies to find that there is no deep state outside of conspiracy forums and our economic outlook and foreign policy is a dumpster fire as Trump is not rational but likely narcissistic and mislead or misinformed by his staff to ignore reality such as the looming economic crisis.

walshemj 7y ago

Not really most of the senior civil service are political appointees in the USA.

cat199 7y ago

agree or disagree with the actual existence, but this definition ignores politically active people in politically important and politically connected non-governmental institutions e.g. media, finance, think tanks, unions, etc, which i think is implied by at least some when using this term..