7 ms·

Slavery is America's original sin, to this day it permeates every aspect of this nation. Americans must continue to campaign to right the wrongs that began in 1

Slavery is America's original sin, to this day it permeates every aspect of this nation. Americans must continue to campaign to right the wrongs that began in 1619, I'm really grateful for this project and it's motive of reframing the origin of this country.

dmarusic16 7y ago
America is a country, not a project of universal human redemption. Countries do horrible things at times, yes. And these things should be studied. But it’s high time we abandon the gauzy religious rhetoric (“original sin”) when we talk about the United States. It’s a hangover from Lincoln’s rhetoric, and in many ways it’s not healthy, as it prevents us from taking concrete steps to fix concrete problems.
- 40acres 7y ago
  America has always billed itself as more than a nation ("shining city on a hill", etc.), it's up to it's citizens to hold ourselves to account. Without looking at the past there is no way to fix our concrete problems going forward. For instance, look at the Supreme Court case Holder v. Alabama and how it changed the Voting Rights Act, there is a direct line to slavery and the racism that fueled it. At this very moment States are using this ruling to reinstate laws that disenfranchise black voters who suffered after the fall of Reconstruction.
  - dmarusic16 7y ago
    I’m certainly neither arguing for not looking at the past, nor for doing nothing. I’m suggesting that the universalist language of the founding, and then subsequently the brilliant rhetoric of Lincoln trying to knit together a country wrecked by Civil War, is not helpful. Elevating actual monstrosities to a religious plane leads to lots of handwringing about “atonement” and “repentance”, a lot of which ends up easy to dismiss by those less sold on the metaphor. Instead, sober discussion about the realities of race today, and even more importantly how those play out along class—an underdeveloped subject among most Americans—would be welcome.
    - 40acres 7y ago
      In my opinion, religion is such a powerful force because it allows us to view human behavior through spiritual metaphors. We can agree to disagree but I believe the original sin framing is apt, particularly when discussing slavery with those who rightfully argue that they had nothing to do with the actions of their ancestors. Atonement and repentance are also accurate, because too many of us believe that once the Civil War was over all Americans were equal, this is just not the case. Discrimination on the level of American slavery compounds and effects us to this day. Most black Americans still live in the South, Southern schools are more integrated than Norther n schools because Brown v. BoE was more heavily enforced there. Certain counties in the South needed to get sign off from the Department of Justice to change their voting laws because they were found to be continuing their long history of discrimination against black people, a white nationalist shot up a Walmart partly because despite the fact that racially infused murder has been a Hallmark of our nation for hundreds of years -- we still don't take it seriously enough to fund counter efforts. Perhaps I'm blinded, but almost every social story in America today is connected back to the effects of slavery and racism.
      - malandrew 7y ago
        This goes even beyond "those who rightfully argue that they had nothing to do with the actions of their ancestors." Whose original sin? I moved to the United States in 1986 from another continent. Not one of my ancestors was in any way involved with US chattel slavery. Because I have fair skin, do I bear this original sin? Does every person in America with fair skin whose ancestors moved to the US after the US Civil War also bear this original sin? I'm not saying that something wrong didn't happen, but it's not useful or productive to state that there is an "original sin" that all people living in the US with fair skin are responsible for when the overwhelming majority of those with fair skin moved to this country from the very end of the 19th century onwards.
        mcguire 7y ago
        Why did you move to the United States? Did you throw a dart at a map and come to the US because it occupies a big chunk of North America? Or are there reasons that do involve the country's history? No one who eats meat can hold a moral position higher than the butcher, even if they don't work in the slaughterhouse.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Reference: John Winthrop's City Upon a Hill sermon (https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/colliding-cultures/john-winthrop-dreams-of-a-city-on-a-hill-1630/ https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/colliding-cultures/john-...). The weird thing about the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill#Use_in_United_States_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill#Use_in_United...) is that the "use in United States politics" section only lists sources from 1961. I can remember the sermon showing up in my history books in the '70s; it surely didn't disappear for 300 years.
- gumby 7y ago
  I disagree strongly (and I did not grow up in a religious context). I feel that pointing out the flaws in basic assumptions allows the to be identified and (one hopes) addressed; the use of religious metaphor can help some people frame it properly.
  - dmarusic16 7y ago
    My point is that it’s precisely the wrong frame. And indeed, you make my point for me: we can do better than “hope”.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    > frame it properly. define this. Those metaphors certainly do "frame" things, but what criteria is being used to make determination if that framing is "proper"? My view is that it frames thing in a loaded biased way that presupposes the solution, which is atonement. There is a clear and unambiguous bias towards the solution you've already decided upon by using that framing. Basically, you've worked from the solution backwards towards the framing that will convince others to arrive at your chosen solution.
mieseratte 7y ago
What present-day wrongs exist as a result of slavery and what actions would you suggest to fix them?
- ssully 7y ago
  It's hard to tell if this question comes from a place of genuine curiosity and an overwhelming amount of ignorance, or just trolling.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > and an overwhelming amount of ignorance I'm aware of god awful amounts of present-day adverse impact upon the black community, among others. What I'm not quite understanding is that slavery is the cause as opposed to myriad racist policies or otherwise dysfuntional systems between 1865 and now.
    - ssully 7y ago
      I suppose I just don't see the difference between the two. I guess I could see how one could say slavery existed because of the racist systems and policies, but I just don't think the article needs to make that distinction since they are so intertwined.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        > since they are so intertwined. They're simply different things, slavery doesn't imply racism though the US system was almost entirely on racial lines. Either way there's a broken situation that needs fixed.
- 40acres 7y ago
  Here's how I look at it, slavery is not inherently racist, other cultures have captured slaves as POWs and have enslaved those of the same race and ethnic group. However, Western slavery required racism to justify it (they are less intelligent, they are genetically engineered for labor, they feel less pain, etc.) that racism has led to various laws that hold back people to this day and have been used to justify terrible policies, such as poll taxes, redlining, contract leasing, school segregation, medical discrimination, etc. Fundamentally the two biggest policies I'd like to see enacted to benefit ALL Americans is full enfranchisement and desegregation of schools. It's my belief, possibly naive, that these are root cause issues and would fix a lot of the artificial inequality we see today.
protomyth 7y ago
Slavery is America's original sin Although providing a great line for The West Wing, I would say America's treatment of the indigenous people is America's original sin.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kmonsen 7y ago
  This true, and never really been acknowledged in the same was as slavery. For example Trump's favourite president is Andrew Jackson with the stain of trail of tears: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Indian_removal_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Indian_removal_...
- malandrew 7y ago
  In pre-colonial America, many indigenous people of the Americas treated one another the same way along tribal boundaries. The pre-colonial Americas had slavey, war, fighting for territory, etc. This is what humans do.
- mcguire 7y ago
  If we're going to be technical, America's original sin is being human. Humans are pretty loathsome, especially when they're being hypocritical.
deogeo 7y ago
Surely the approximately million dead and wounded in the civil war go some way to atone for that sin. In fact, for the North, this should not be viewed as a sin, but a source of pride.
- samth 7y ago
  Lincoln's Second Inaugural is good on how insufficient this is.

dmarusic16 7y ago

America is a country, not a project of universal human redemption. Countries do horrible things at times, yes. And these things should be studied. But it’s high time we abandon the gauzy religious rhetoric (“original sin”) when we talk about the United States. It’s a hangover from Lincoln’s rhetoric, and in many ways it’s not healthy, as it prevents us from taking concrete steps to fix concrete problems.

40acres 7y ago
America has always billed itself as more than a nation ("shining city on a hill", etc.), it's up to it's citizens to hold ourselves to account. Without looking at the past there is no way to fix our concrete problems going forward. For instance, look at the Supreme Court case Holder v. Alabama and how it changed the Voting Rights Act, there is a direct line to slavery and the racism that fueled it. At this very moment States are using this ruling to reinstate laws that disenfranchise black voters who suffered after the fall of Reconstruction.
- dmarusic16 7y ago
  I’m certainly neither arguing for not looking at the past, nor for doing nothing. I’m suggesting that the universalist language of the founding, and then subsequently the brilliant rhetoric of Lincoln trying to knit together a country wrecked by Civil War, is not helpful. Elevating actual monstrosities to a religious plane leads to lots of handwringing about “atonement” and “repentance”, a lot of which ends up easy to dismiss by those less sold on the metaphor. Instead, sober discussion about the realities of race today, and even more importantly how those play out along class—an underdeveloped subject among most Americans—would be welcome.
  - 40acres 7y ago
    In my opinion, religion is such a powerful force because it allows us to view human behavior through spiritual metaphors. We can agree to disagree but I believe the original sin framing is apt, particularly when discussing slavery with those who rightfully argue that they had nothing to do with the actions of their ancestors. Atonement and repentance are also accurate, because too many of us believe that once the Civil War was over all Americans were equal, this is just not the case. Discrimination on the level of American slavery compounds and effects us to this day. Most black Americans still live in the South, Southern schools are more integrated than Norther n schools because Brown v. BoE was more heavily enforced there. Certain counties in the South needed to get sign off from the Department of Justice to change their voting laws because they were found to be continuing their long history of discrimination against black people, a white nationalist shot up a Walmart partly because despite the fact that racially infused murder has been a Hallmark of our nation for hundreds of years -- we still don't take it seriously enough to fund counter efforts. Perhaps I'm blinded, but almost every social story in America today is connected back to the effects of slavery and racism.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      This goes even beyond "those who rightfully argue that they had nothing to do with the actions of their ancestors." Whose original sin? I moved to the United States in 1986 from another continent. Not one of my ancestors was in any way involved with US chattel slavery. Because I have fair skin, do I bear this original sin? Does every person in America with fair skin whose ancestors moved to the US after the US Civil War also bear this original sin? I'm not saying that something wrong didn't happen, but it's not useful or productive to state that there is an "original sin" that all people living in the US with fair skin are responsible for when the overwhelming majority of those with fair skin moved to this country from the very end of the 19th century onwards.
      - mcguire 7y ago
        Why did you move to the United States? Did you throw a dart at a map and come to the US because it occupies a big chunk of North America? Or are there reasons that do involve the country's history? No one who eats meat can hold a moral position higher than the butcher, even if they don't work in the slaughterhouse.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mcguire 7y ago
  Reference: John Winthrop's City Upon a Hill sermon (https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/colliding-cultures/john-winthrop-dreams-of-a-city-on-a-hill-1630/ https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/colliding-cultures/john-...). The weird thing about the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill#Use_in_United_States_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill#Use_in_United...) is that the "use in United States politics" section only lists sources from 1961. I can remember the sermon showing up in my history books in the '70s; it surely didn't disappear for 300 years.
gumby 7y ago
I disagree strongly (and I did not grow up in a religious context). I feel that pointing out the flaws in basic assumptions allows the to be identified and (one hopes) addressed; the use of religious metaphor can help some people frame it properly.
- dmarusic16 7y ago
  My point is that it’s precisely the wrong frame. And indeed, you make my point for me: we can do better than “hope”.
- malandrew 7y ago
  > frame it properly. define this. Those metaphors certainly do "frame" things, but what criteria is being used to make determination if that framing is "proper"? My view is that it frames thing in a loaded biased way that presupposes the solution, which is atonement. There is a clear and unambiguous bias towards the solution you've already decided upon by using that framing. Basically, you've worked from the solution backwards towards the framing that will convince others to arrive at your chosen solution.

mieseratte 7y ago

What present-day wrongs exist as a result of slavery and what actions would you suggest to fix them?

ssully 7y ago
It's hard to tell if this question comes from a place of genuine curiosity and an overwhelming amount of ignorance, or just trolling.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > and an overwhelming amount of ignorance I'm aware of god awful amounts of present-day adverse impact upon the black community, among others. What I'm not quite understanding is that slavery is the cause as opposed to myriad racist policies or otherwise dysfuntional systems between 1865 and now.
  - ssully 7y ago
    I suppose I just don't see the difference between the two. I guess I could see how one could say slavery existed because of the racist systems and policies, but I just don't think the article needs to make that distinction since they are so intertwined.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      > since they are so intertwined. They're simply different things, slavery doesn't imply racism though the US system was almost entirely on racial lines. Either way there's a broken situation that needs fixed.
40acres 7y ago
Here's how I look at it, slavery is not inherently racist, other cultures have captured slaves as POWs and have enslaved those of the same race and ethnic group. However, Western slavery required racism to justify it (they are less intelligent, they are genetically engineered for labor, they feel less pain, etc.) that racism has led to various laws that hold back people to this day and have been used to justify terrible policies, such as poll taxes, redlining, contract leasing, school segregation, medical discrimination, etc. Fundamentally the two biggest policies I'd like to see enacted to benefit ALL Americans is full enfranchisement and desegregation of schools. It's my belief, possibly naive, that these are root cause issues and would fix a lot of the artificial inequality we see today.

protomyth 7y ago

Slavery is America's original sin Although providing a great line for The West Wing, I would say America's treatment of the indigenous people is America's original sin.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kmonsen 7y ago
This true, and never really been acknowledged in the same was as slavery. For example Trump's favourite president is Andrew Jackson with the stain of trail of tears: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Indian_removal_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Indian_removal_...
malandrew 7y ago
In pre-colonial America, many indigenous people of the Americas treated one another the same way along tribal boundaries. The pre-colonial Americas had slavey, war, fighting for territory, etc. This is what humans do.
mcguire 7y ago
If we're going to be technical, America's original sin is being human. Humans are pretty loathsome, especially when they're being hypocritical.

deogeo 7y ago

Surely the approximately million dead and wounded in the civil war go some way to atone for that sin. In fact, for the North, this should not be viewed as a sin, but a source of pride.

samth 7y ago
Lincoln's Second Inaugural is good on how insufficient this is.