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An unpopular opinion that I'm sure will garner negative reactions because everyone likes to self diagnose themselves, but I find the introvert/extrovert dichoto

An unpopular opinion that I'm sure will garner negative reactions because everyone likes to self diagnose themselves, but I find the introvert/extrovert dichotomy quite weak. Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "introverted" have just not invested any time into building their social skills. Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "extroverted" are people who are not comfortable with being alone for whatever reasons. It is seemingly obvious to me that both social skills and being with one self are both equally important. Deciding which one you are by taking a shallow survey with surface level questions seems unintelligent. Choosing one to identify with seems irrationally limiting to who you could be.

tonyarkles 7y ago
Yeah, that's one of the most painful parts of, for example, the r/Introvert subreddit. There's a mix of people who just need alone time to recharge (per the current popular description), and people who seem to have terrible social skills or absolutely crippling social anxiety. At least the community is sort of good at distinguishing between the two and sometimes encouraging people to find help.
lonelappde 7y ago
This doesn't make sense. You've defines the terms in approximately the usual way noted that you have observed them, and then declared they don't exist. Yes, you can learn to change much of your behavior. That doesn't mean you don't have strong preferences. Would you say that someone who says they aren't athletic based on a shallow survey of behaviors and inclinations is unintelligent? Someone who answers a shallow survey on their sexual orientation is unintelligent?
m-watson 7y ago
I think that there is for sure an aspect of underdeveloped skills. That could come from lack of interest, background/culture/environment, or any other number of reasons sure. But I think a bigger aspect is how psychologists often phrase it (sure it is wishy washy) but where do you get your energy. Some people are going to be more comfortable with people around and others feel more relaxed alone. That can and most likely will change over any individuals life but it is important to recognize what environments to go to when you need a recharge. And yes, people love to self-diagnose and take surface level quizzes, but this also does seem to be a real phenomenon different personalities have and understanding your own and others personalities will improve everyone's social interactions. So I agree, we should all work on being with ourselves as well as how to interact with others. But we also need to know, when feeling stressed, if we should retreat to a quiet room or a crowed get together. And just a last point is that it seems like this silent book club is doing what you suggest, it is an introvert going to a place they feel more comfortable which will in time develop their social skills.
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  I simplify it as such, because it makes sense to me: Other people's energy flows into an extrovert. While an introverts energy flows into other people. If I spend even a few moments with an extrovert, I feel so drained.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  Developing a skill should have a payoff. When someone does not perceive as great a reward in social interactions, the motivation to develop their social skills is less. If social skills were on a tech tree, introverts would put points into the "polite disengagement" branch first, while extroverts are still putting their early points into "bonus friend slot" and "multiple-participant schedule coordination" and such. Some people might just recruit an extrovert for their sole friend slot, drop a single point on "Irish Exit", let the friend set up all the social events, and just vanish whenever they're done. That's a perfectly reasonable social skills build, up until the extrovert reaches their friend cap and drops the introvert into the acquaintance pool, to free up a slot for someone with better synergy bonuses. And this is the sort of thinking that tends to drive off people who don't view (or don't want to view) the universe as a simulation that could be hackable with a better understanding of the data structures, and who don't want to have nerdy, speculative-fiction conversations about whether "deflect blame for loud fart" is a skill or a perk.
H1Supreme 7y ago
Introversion / Extroversion refers to the way someone recharges one's "batteries". My girlfriend and I are prime examples. Once Friday rolls around, I want to put 40 miles on my bicycle, and play guitar all weekend. She, on the other hand, wants to see friends, go to an event, etc. We try to compromise. The social aspect, in terms of one's anxiety around it, or the ability to be social, doesn't factor in. At least not in the sense that introverts are bad at being social. And vice versa. In fact, my girlfriend is quite a bit more socially awkward then I am. Especially in new situations, and around new people. She gets anxious about it, worries how she's going to be perceived, and either clams up or talks too much. I'm the one who breaks her in to these situations. Which, considering how most people define these two terms, is ironic.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mokus 7y ago
I am an introvert, but people at work usually don’t realize it for quite a while. I spent years “training” myself to be sociable and can do so quite effectively, but I still dislike it and would much rather be alone. Sometimes that builds up to the point where I need to take time off work just to recover from social interaction.
everdrive 7y ago
A clear definition for introvert/extrovert certainly exists, but the term has drifted. This happens pretty often, since most people enjoy talking about personality types. "I'm so OCD!" seldom means "I have to keep checking the fridge to see if I locked my cat in there, even though I know he's not in there."
rejschaap 7y ago
> An unpopular opinion that I'm sure will garner negative reactions because everyone likes to self diagnose themselves, but I find the introvert/extrovert dichotomy quite weak. Most psychologists don't view it as a dichotomy but rather as a scale with introversion on one side and extraversion on the opposite side. People are not either introverted or extraverted, they are somewhere on this scale. Which means that they tend to prefer introverted or extraverted behavior depending on their position on the scale. So even a very introverted person can display extraverted behavior, although it will be unlikely to happen often. > Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "introverted" have just not invested any time into building their social skills. The further people are on the introverted side, the more they prefer to be by themselves. Any skill you don't practice will not improve much, this is also true for social skills. > Deciding which one you are by taking a shallow survey with surface level questions seems unintelligent. > Choosing one to identify with seems irrationally limiting to who you could be. You can influence the outcome of the survey, but the idea is to determine where you are on the scale, not to decide or choose. It is a model of personality/temperament and has proven itself quite useful over the years. But obviously it has its limitations.
nickpsecurity 7y ago
We can guess about it or do some science: https://introvertdear.com/news/introverts-and-extroverts-brains-really-are-different-according-to-science/ https://introvertdear.com/news/introverts-and-extroverts-bra... The folks far on each E/I scale have brains that work quite differently. They prefer different chemicals with different effects. There's more or less of certain structures. There's a different, longer pathway for introverts. Might be more things we haven't found yet. So far, they're neurologically different followed by different behavior that's a consistent default despite their environments. From there, I can agree that introverts can improve at interacting with extroverts by investing energy into doing it better, desensitize themselves a bit, etc. It will still drain their energy because their brains work differently. They'll be acting the whole time while others are just casually talking in a way that builds their energy using a different chemical.
abathur 7y ago
I more generally think limiting your identity-surface is a good idea, because I suspect strongly-held identities do subtly hem you in and shape your choices (which can be exacerbated if your identification was mistaken.) That said, I narrowly disagree that it's a weak distinction (I wholeheartedly agree it's a messy one) that only has currency because people are desperate to self-diagnose. A few thoughts: - We are (broadly) too quick to self-diagnose, but I think it's mostly a byproduct of more general behavior. We're too quick to identify. We lean too heavily on categorization and especially exclusive categories and once the categories are reified, have a hard time seeing the variety they were trying to carve order out of. - I don't want to project, but I wonder if you find the distinction weak because you mostly experience the middle of a normal distribution produced by a messy attempt to quantify a forest of human emotion and behavior. - I think the I/E spectrum has salience because it has at least a little power to explain how people, relationships, and societies all work at scale in a way that defuses/de-personalizes a common source of friction. - About like I'd expect, I can only think of a few people I've ever known for whom their status as an introvert or extravert is so essential that it's part of my own model of their behavior.
BurningFrog 7y ago
Note that OP wrote about people who proclaim they are "introverted"/"extroverted". This is quite different from the technical distinction psychology professionals make when using the words, which is what most people seem to respond to.

tonyarkles 7y ago

Yeah, that's one of the most painful parts of, for example, the r/Introvert subreddit. There's a mix of people who just need alone time to recharge (per the current popular description), and people who seem to have terrible social skills or absolutely crippling social anxiety. At least the community is sort of good at distinguishing between the two and sometimes encouraging people to find help.

lonelappde 7y ago

This doesn't make sense. You've defines the terms in approximately the usual way noted that you have observed them, and then declared they don't exist. Yes, you can learn to change much of your behavior. That doesn't mean you don't have strong preferences. Would you say that someone who says they aren't athletic based on a shallow survey of behaviors and inclinations is unintelligent? Someone who answers a shallow survey on their sexual orientation is unintelligent?

m-watson 7y ago

I think that there is for sure an aspect of underdeveloped skills. That could come from lack of interest, background/culture/environment, or any other number of reasons sure. But I think a bigger aspect is how psychologists often phrase it (sure it is wishy washy) but where do you get your energy. Some people are going to be more comfortable with people around and others feel more relaxed alone. That can and most likely will change over any individuals life but it is important to recognize what environments to go to when you need a recharge. And yes, people love to self-diagnose and take surface level quizzes, but this also does seem to be a real phenomenon different personalities have and understanding your own and others personalities will improve everyone's social interactions. So I agree, we should all work on being with ourselves as well as how to interact with others. But we also need to know, when feeling stressed, if we should retreat to a quiet room or a crowed get together. And just a last point is that it seems like this silent book club is doing what you suggest, it is an introvert going to a place they feel more comfortable which will in time develop their social skills.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago
I simplify it as such, because it makes sense to me: Other people's energy flows into an extrovert. While an introverts energy flows into other people. If I spend even a few moments with an extrovert, I feel so drained.
logfromblammo 7y ago
Developing a skill should have a payoff. When someone does not perceive as great a reward in social interactions, the motivation to develop their social skills is less. If social skills were on a tech tree, introverts would put points into the "polite disengagement" branch first, while extroverts are still putting their early points into "bonus friend slot" and "multiple-participant schedule coordination" and such. Some people might just recruit an extrovert for their sole friend slot, drop a single point on "Irish Exit", let the friend set up all the social events, and just vanish whenever they're done. That's a perfectly reasonable social skills build, up until the extrovert reaches their friend cap and drops the introvert into the acquaintance pool, to free up a slot for someone with better synergy bonuses. And this is the sort of thinking that tends to drive off people who don't view (or don't want to view) the universe as a simulation that could be hackable with a better understanding of the data structures, and who don't want to have nerdy, speculative-fiction conversations about whether "deflect blame for loud fart" is a skill or a perk.

H1Supreme 7y ago

Introversion / Extroversion refers to the way someone recharges one's "batteries". My girlfriend and I are prime examples. Once Friday rolls around, I want to put 40 miles on my bicycle, and play guitar all weekend. She, on the other hand, wants to see friends, go to an event, etc. We try to compromise. The social aspect, in terms of one's anxiety around it, or the ability to be social, doesn't factor in. At least not in the sense that introverts are bad at being social. And vice versa. In fact, my girlfriend is quite a bit more socially awkward then I am. Especially in new situations, and around new people. She gets anxious about it, worries how she's going to be perceived, and either clams up or talks too much. I'm the one who breaks her in to these situations. Which, considering how most people define these two terms, is ironic.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mokus 7y ago

I am an introvert, but people at work usually don’t realize it for quite a while. I spent years “training” myself to be sociable and can do so quite effectively, but I still dislike it and would much rather be alone. Sometimes that builds up to the point where I need to take time off work just to recover from social interaction.

everdrive 7y ago

A clear definition for introvert/extrovert certainly exists, but the term has drifted. This happens pretty often, since most people enjoy talking about personality types. "I'm so OCD!" seldom means "I have to keep checking the fridge to see if I locked my cat in there, even though I know he's not in there."

rejschaap 7y ago

> An unpopular opinion that I'm sure will garner negative reactions because everyone likes to self diagnose themselves, but I find the introvert/extrovert dichotomy quite weak. Most psychologists don't view it as a dichotomy but rather as a scale with introversion on one side and extraversion on the opposite side. People are not either introverted or extraverted, they are somewhere on this scale. Which means that they tend to prefer introverted or extraverted behavior depending on their position on the scale. So even a very introverted person can display extraverted behavior, although it will be unlikely to happen often. > Most people who I meet who proclaim they are "introverted" have just not invested any time into building their social skills. The further people are on the introverted side, the more they prefer to be by themselves. Any skill you don't practice will not improve much, this is also true for social skills. > Deciding which one you are by taking a shallow survey with surface level questions seems unintelligent. > Choosing one to identify with seems irrationally limiting to who you could be. You can influence the outcome of the survey, but the idea is to determine where you are on the scale, not to decide or choose. It is a model of personality/temperament and has proven itself quite useful over the years. But obviously it has its limitations.

nickpsecurity 7y ago

We can guess about it or do some science: https://introvertdear.com/news/introverts-and-extroverts-brains-really-are-different-according-to-science/ https://introvertdear.com/news/introverts-and-extroverts-bra... The folks far on each E/I scale have brains that work quite differently. They prefer different chemicals with different effects. There's more or less of certain structures. There's a different, longer pathway for introverts. Might be more things we haven't found yet. So far, they're neurologically different followed by different behavior that's a consistent default despite their environments. From there, I can agree that introverts can improve at interacting with extroverts by investing energy into doing it better, desensitize themselves a bit, etc. It will still drain their energy because their brains work differently. They'll be acting the whole time while others are just casually talking in a way that builds their energy using a different chemical.

abathur 7y ago

I more generally think limiting your identity-surface is a good idea, because I suspect strongly-held identities do subtly hem you in and shape your choices (which can be exacerbated if your identification was mistaken.) That said, I narrowly disagree that it's a weak distinction (I wholeheartedly agree it's a messy one) that only has currency because people are desperate to self-diagnose. A few thoughts: - We are (broadly) too quick to self-diagnose, but I think it's mostly a byproduct of more general behavior. We're too quick to identify. We lean too heavily on categorization and especially exclusive categories and once the categories are reified, have a hard time seeing the variety they were trying to carve order out of. - I don't want to project, but I wonder if you find the distinction weak because you mostly experience the middle of a normal distribution produced by a messy attempt to quantify a forest of human emotion and behavior. - I think the I/E spectrum has salience because it has at least a little power to explain how people, relationships, and societies all work at scale in a way that defuses/de-personalizes a common source of friction. - About like I'd expect, I can only think of a few people I've ever known for whom their status as an introvert or extravert is so essential that it's part of my own model of their behavior.

BurningFrog 7y ago

Note that OP wrote about people who proclaim they are "introverted"/"extroverted". This is quite different from the technical distinction psychology professionals make when using the words, which is what most people seem to respond to.