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$9/day after doing all that is still insane. This is not NYC or SF where that is the cost of a bagel. Price signals may work but at the end of the day utiliti

$9/day after doing all that is still insane. This is not NYC or SF where that is the cost of a bagel. Price signals may work but at the end of the day utilities need to be cheap enough that the poor can mostly use them without thinking twice. The elderly can't just turn off their A/C in high heat.

sokoloff 7y ago
If we had an abundance of low environmentally impacting energy, energy would be cheap enough that the poor could use it without caring. That's not the world we live in (at least not yet).
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Price signals may work but at the end of the day utilities need to be cheap enough that the poor can mostly use them without thinking twice. No, utilities need to be subsidized for the poor (perhaps through s general subsidy, or otherwise through a utility-specific one) and perhaps also those somewhat less poor with special needs so that they can use what is essential without undue hardship; the prices of utilities for the rich don't need to be low enough that the poor could pay them without thought.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I don't think utilities need to be subsidized for anyone. There's a difference between that and just giving people money. If I have $X extra a month in income, and electricity or fuel is really expensive, then I still make choices based on the relative price of those things versus other goods. But if I am given a subsidy of $X specifically for energy, then that seems like a terrible idea. Just because it's the same amount of money doesn't mean it has the same effect on my choices and the environment.
CalRobert 7y ago
Correct. So getting people who are able to do so to use _less_ of that scarce resource helps ensure it's available to those who need it. We uses prices for almost everything with a scarcity, saying "well if we price this thing correctly the poor can't afford it" is an argument for addressing income inequality, not just trying to make everything an all you can eat buffet.
deleted 7y ago
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lazerpants 7y ago
Exactly. He can probably afford it given the otherwise low cost of living and lack of state income tax.
mikeash 7y ago
A lot of that is because most end users don’t have such granular prices. They keep their AC on because why not. When price changes are concentrated on just a few users, the swings get wild.

sokoloff 7y ago

If we had an abundance of low environmentally impacting energy, energy would be cheap enough that the poor could use it without caring. That's not the world we live in (at least not yet).

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Price signals may work but at the end of the day utilities need to be cheap enough that the poor can mostly use them without thinking twice. No, utilities need to be subsidized for the poor (perhaps through s general subsidy, or otherwise through a utility-specific one) and perhaps also those somewhat less poor with special needs so that they can use what is essential without undue hardship; the prices of utilities for the rich don't need to be low enough that the poor could pay them without thought.

perl4ever 7y ago
I don't think utilities need to be subsidized for anyone. There's a difference between that and just giving people money. If I have $X extra a month in income, and electricity or fuel is really expensive, then I still make choices based on the relative price of those things versus other goods. But if I am given a subsidy of $X specifically for energy, then that seems like a terrible idea. Just because it's the same amount of money doesn't mean it has the same effect on my choices and the environment.

CalRobert 7y ago

Correct. So getting people who are able to do so to use _less_ of that scarce resource helps ensure it's available to those who need it. We uses prices for almost everything with a scarcity, saying "well if we price this thing correctly the poor can't afford it" is an argument for addressing income inequality, not just trying to make everything an all you can eat buffet.

deleted 7y ago

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lazerpants 7y ago

Exactly. He can probably afford it given the otherwise low cost of living and lack of state income tax.

mikeash 7y ago

A lot of that is because most end users don’t have such granular prices. They keep their AC on because why not. When price changes are concentrated on just a few users, the swings get wild.