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> As a developer I don’t want to have to optimise my code based on the first meaningful paint You don't have to implement this anywhere, not even on web. This

by yoz-y 7y ago

> As a developer I don’t want to have to optimise my code based on the first meaningful paint You don't have to implement this anywhere, not even on web. This is only because people making web frontends want to measure the performance to this granularity. The web is different from all other native frameworks in that it is highly asynchronous: your text comes first, your images come later, css gets applied somewhere in between, then come in the third party content (usually ads but not necessarily, it could be embedded video for example). > I used to think being a front end developer only was a silly role as the skills are easily learned. Now it’s so complicated, the top front end engineers should be getting paid the same salaries as senior backend. Wow. Reading this I get the impression that you think that currently backend engineers deserve more money intrinsically. Why? Depending on the program the frontend might be way more important than the backend. Making good interfaces _is_ complicated, even if the tooling would be perfect a good interface requires a lot of thought. <Rant> I've seen many threads and discussions dissing backends made by 'frontend devs' as if it were an insult. But please realize that frontends made by devs unskilled in this domain are equally bad and prevent your programs from being used by a lots of people. </Rant>

deanclatworthy 7y ago
Regarding your last point, yes I used to believe backend engineers deserved more pay. Usually they had higher education, and were solving more complex problems with all kinds of dependencies and integrations. Frontend, 10 years ago, was about knowing jQuery, how to make an XMLHttpRequest maybe, and a little bit of domain knowledge on browser bugs and using floats to implement your layout. Back then you weren't even doing responsive layouts on all projects. People usually filling these roles were not required to have the same amount of domain knowledge as a backend engineer - no way. Nowadays it's a different kettle of fish. The tooling is insane. The dependency tree is insane. The amount of granular optimisations and obscure browser APIs you need to know to work on big-tech frontends is nuts. So yes, I used to think this was the case. Not anymore.
- GrumpyNl 7y ago
  It still boils down to css and html,but we are champs at complicating things.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > Nowadays it's a different kettle of fish. The tooling is insane. The dependency tree is insane. That sounds like a self inflicted problem. Is there any problem that the javascript-driven approach to frontends actually solves that justifies the added complexity?
- J5892 7y ago
  I've definitely had to fight, as a frontend engineer, to prove that my job is just as demanding (and in many cases more so) as any other engineer. I have the education, knowledge, and problem solving skills required for backend engineering; I just find the front end much more interesting. Building a complex, intuitive user interface for an application/website is a huge challenge.
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by yoz-y 7y ago

deanclatworthy 7y ago

Regarding your last point, yes I used to believe backend engineers deserved more pay. Usually they had higher education, and were solving more complex problems with all kinds of dependencies and integrations. Frontend, 10 years ago, was about knowing jQuery, how to make an XMLHttpRequest maybe, and a little bit of domain knowledge on browser bugs and using floats to implement your layout. Back then you weren't even doing responsive layouts on all projects. People usually filling these roles were not required to have the same amount of domain knowledge as a backend engineer - no way. Nowadays it's a different kettle of fish. The tooling is insane. The dependency tree is insane. The amount of granular optimisations and obscure browser APIs you need to know to work on big-tech frontends is nuts. So yes, I used to think this was the case. Not anymore.

GrumpyNl 7y ago
It still boils down to css and html,but we are champs at complicating things.
rumanator 7y ago
> Nowadays it's a different kettle of fish. The tooling is insane. The dependency tree is insane. That sounds like a self inflicted problem. Is there any problem that the javascript-driven approach to frontends actually solves that justifies the added complexity?
J5892 7y ago
I've definitely had to fight, as a frontend engineer, to prove that my job is just as demanding (and in many cases more so) as any other engineer. I have the education, knowledge, and problem solving skills required for backend engineering; I just find the front end much more interesting. Building a complex, intuitive user interface for an application/website is a huge challenge.

deleted 7y ago

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