6 ms·

Indefinitely, because most people do not consider it a "fiasco." Have you seen what the batteries look like for, say, the new 13" Macbook Pro or the 12" Macbook

by Zanni 7y ago

Indefinitely, because most people do not consider it a "fiasco." Have you seen what the batteries look like for, say, the new 13" Macbook Pro or the 12" Macbook? They're not bricks you could just feed into a slot. They're multi-part systems that distribute the battery through the gaps in the case. Fixing them in place means they don't need extra casing support, don't need to be near a specific edge and are flexible enough to maximize space usage inside the case. Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier, and there's a large contingent on HN that wants exactly that. But ... there's an even larger contingent outside the techi-verse that loves thin and light laptops.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
AlexDragusin 7y ago
Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in half. Customers would revolt, and far more noticeably than over mere keyboard problems.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    Besides that one pesky ribbon cable that could probably be rerouted under the battery pack easily, I see nothing else that prevents a removable battery containing multiple cells, which need not be rectangular overall.
  - AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
    In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing. Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasting significant internal volume with hard casing around the removable battery module which does not need to exist.
    - AlexDragusin 7y ago
      Just a matter of engineering which we are well capable of solving, as long as batteries are clearly labeled as consumable items [1] they should be user replaceable which given the limitations of current battery technology, would also reduce the friction, inconveniences and dangers presented in this particular case. Personally, I am not against thin devices and non removable batteries, it should be done in tandem as the technology will be aligned with this approach without compromising the user experience and ability to replace consumable components. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.html https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.htm...
    - userbinator 7y ago
      Look at smartphone batteries --- even when they were easily replaceable, they weren't very puncture-resistant, being nothing more than a bare pouch cell with a wrapper label.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    More than one way to skin a cat though. Make the lid, keyboard, and electronics removable and treat the battery as part of the case?
- lsc 7y ago
  The macbook is not a desktop replacement; it's a very portable laptop. Being as small as possible is a big part of it's function. You pay a lot extra for this, both in terms of actual money, reduced computing power, and probably decreased longevity. (Interestingly, this used to be the norm. Back in the day, the smallest thinkpads were also the most expensive. If you cared about money, you'd carry around something much larger and clunkier. It wasn't until the advent of the netbook that "small" also meant "cheap") If you don't think a laptop being as small and thin as possible is important and worth paying for, then you will be very disappointed with the current crop of macbooks. (As an aside, I find it kinda weird to see people with these macbooks that are absolutely optimized for portability using them as desktop replacements. Like... maybe part of that was that for a long time apple sold really ancient hardware for their desktops, and maybe these people just really loved OS-X? But... this goes to your point... the fact that so many people use macbooks as desktop replacements does indicate that maybe there's a market for a more desktop-y macbook, maybe one with active cooling and a replaceable battery? But it's also possible that those users are willing to pay a cost in terms of longevity and in terms of expandability in exchange for their desktop replacement simply being more portable for the few times they do actually move it.) Either way, I like my macbook even though I'd be seriously annoyed if I was limited to that much compute power for my main usage, and I'd go insane if I had to use the keyboard/trackpad for serious work. But for me? I think the cost is totally reasonable for something I can put in almost any of my bags; something that adds almost no perceptible weight. I had a sony viao P series for a while; it was similar. I mean, my other personal laptop is a thinkpad X220, which is exactly the sort of thing you would like; it's pretty easy to swap out all the parts, including the battery. It is actively cooled (and aside from the battery and hard drive, the fan seems to be one of the common bits to break.) - it's also not powerful enough for comfortable full-time use, imo, but it stands up well to the mac book in that regard, and it has a keyboard that is almost good enough to use all day. (I mean, I'm not switching it out for my kinesis for serious work, but as far as laptop keyboards go, it's pretty good)
- pushpop 7y ago
  > Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies. All you’ve done is drawn a few rectangles and added some labels to them. It doesn’t prove anything is possible. It’s not even detailed enough to be concept art let alone a technical design. You could just have easily drawn the same thing with circles and labelled it “worlds first fusion powered laptop” for all the technical merit that diagram had.
jammygit 7y ago
I think the upcoming 16 inch MacBook will be a little thicker than before, and with one of the the older keyboards. They are maybe modifying their vision a tiny bit since their design lead left
krn 7y ago
> Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier Dell XPS 13 is both, thinner and lighter than Macbook Air, yet its battery replacement process is rated as "very easy"[1] by ifixit. The same applies to Dell XPS 15 vs Macbook Pro. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement/76060 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement...
- eridius 7y ago
  Looks like the Dell XPS 13 uses a single rectangular battery, though it still requires unscrewing the whole case, disconnecting a battery cable, and then unscrewing the battery, so it's not something you can do on the fly. The 2018 MacBook Air battery isn't quite so neat and rectangular: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.h... And you can see here how it fits into all of the available space in the computer: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.h... Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity.
  - krn 7y ago
    > Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity. The point was, that despite getting rid of the single rectangular battery Macbook Air is neither thinner, nor lighter, nor more powerful, nor longer lasting on battery than Dell XPS 13.
  - kingosticks 7y ago
    It's also worth nothing that the XPS has a 52Whr battery and the 2018 Air had a 50.3Whr battery. Although you probably get worse battery life with the XPS (config dependent maybe), you've stil got to hand it to Dell here.
    - krn 7y ago
      In fact, Dell XPS 13 is twice as powerful as Macbook Air, but lasts only a little shorter on battery[1]. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-is-there-a-new-13-inch-laptop-champ/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-i...
chrischen 7y ago
Techverse also wants it. There's just a loud minority that want a desktop they can fit into a backpack.
_ph_ 7y ago
I agree that having a battery which can be changed without opening the laptop case might require to make the laptop much thicker. However, Apple could do a lot to make battery service easier, so that anyone who has the correct screwdrivers can do it in 5 minutes. This would also cause more batteries to be exchanged for old age and thus further reduce the risk of fires. And, as this recall was about the MacBook pro, there is much more space for battery placement than in the smaller devices.

by Zanni 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

AlexDragusin 7y ago

Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies.

crooked-v 7y ago
Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in half. Customers would revolt, and far more noticeably than over mere keyboard problems.
- userbinator 7y ago
  Besides that one pesky ribbon cable that could probably be rerouted under the battery pack easily, I see nothing else that prevents a removable battery containing multiple cells, which need not be rectangular overall.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing. Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasting significant internal volume with hard casing around the removable battery module which does not need to exist.
  - AlexDragusin 7y ago
    Just a matter of engineering which we are well capable of solving, as long as batteries are clearly labeled as consumable items [1] they should be user replaceable which given the limitations of current battery technology, would also reduce the friction, inconveniences and dangers presented in this particular case. Personally, I am not against thin devices and non removable batteries, it should be done in tandem as the technology will be aligned with this approach without compromising the user experience and ability to replace consumable components. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.html https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.htm...
  - userbinator 7y ago
    Look at smartphone batteries --- even when they were easily replaceable, they weren't very puncture-resistant, being nothing more than a bare pouch cell with a wrapper label.
- philwelch 7y ago
  More than one way to skin a cat though. Make the lid, keyboard, and electronics removable and treat the battery as part of the case?
lsc 7y ago
The macbook is not a desktop replacement; it's a very portable laptop. Being as small as possible is a big part of it's function. You pay a lot extra for this, both in terms of actual money, reduced computing power, and probably decreased longevity. (Interestingly, this used to be the norm. Back in the day, the smallest thinkpads were also the most expensive. If you cared about money, you'd carry around something much larger and clunkier. It wasn't until the advent of the netbook that "small" also meant "cheap") If you don't think a laptop being as small and thin as possible is important and worth paying for, then you will be very disappointed with the current crop of macbooks. (As an aside, I find it kinda weird to see people with these macbooks that are absolutely optimized for portability using them as desktop replacements. Like... maybe part of that was that for a long time apple sold really ancient hardware for their desktops, and maybe these people just really loved OS-X? But... this goes to your point... the fact that so many people use macbooks as desktop replacements does indicate that maybe there's a market for a more desktop-y macbook, maybe one with active cooling and a replaceable battery? But it's also possible that those users are willing to pay a cost in terms of longevity and in terms of expandability in exchange for their desktop replacement simply being more portable for the few times they do actually move it.) Either way, I like my macbook even though I'd be seriously annoyed if I was limited to that much compute power for my main usage, and I'd go insane if I had to use the keyboard/trackpad for serious work. But for me? I think the cost is totally reasonable for something I can put in almost any of my bags; something that adds almost no perceptible weight. I had a sony viao P series for a while; it was similar. I mean, my other personal laptop is a thinkpad X220, which is exactly the sort of thing you would like; it's pretty easy to swap out all the parts, including the battery. It is actively cooled (and aside from the battery and hard drive, the fan seems to be one of the common bits to break.) - it's also not powerful enough for comfortable full-time use, imo, but it stands up well to the mac book in that regard, and it has a keyboard that is almost good enough to use all day. (I mean, I'm not switching it out for my kinesis for serious work, but as far as laptop keyboards go, it's pretty good)
pushpop 7y ago
> Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies. All you’ve done is drawn a few rectangles and added some labels to them. It doesn’t prove anything is possible. It’s not even detailed enough to be concept art let alone a technical design. You could just have easily drawn the same thing with circles and labelled it “worlds first fusion powered laptop” for all the technical merit that diagram had.

jammygit 7y ago

I think the upcoming 16 inch MacBook will be a little thicker than before, and with one of the the older keyboards. They are maybe modifying their vision a tiny bit since their design lead left

krn 7y ago

> Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier Dell XPS 13 is both, thinner and lighter than Macbook Air, yet its battery replacement process is rated as "very easy"[1] by ifixit. The same applies to Dell XPS 15 vs Macbook Pro. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement/76060 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement...

eridius 7y ago
Looks like the Dell XPS 13 uses a single rectangular battery, though it still requires unscrewing the whole case, disconnecting a battery cable, and then unscrewing the battery, so it's not something you can do on the fly. The 2018 MacBook Air battery isn't quite so neat and rectangular: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.h... And you can see here how it fits into all of the available space in the computer: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.h... Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity.
- krn 7y ago
  > Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity. The point was, that despite getting rid of the single rectangular battery Macbook Air is neither thinner, nor lighter, nor more powerful, nor longer lasting on battery than Dell XPS 13.
- kingosticks 7y ago
  It's also worth nothing that the XPS has a 52Whr battery and the 2018 Air had a 50.3Whr battery. Although you probably get worse battery life with the XPS (config dependent maybe), you've stil got to hand it to Dell here.
  - krn 7y ago
    In fact, Dell XPS 13 is twice as powerful as Macbook Air, but lasts only a little shorter on battery[1]. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-is-there-a-new-13-inch-laptop-champ/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-i...

chrischen 7y ago

Techverse also wants it. There's just a loud minority that want a desktop they can fit into a backpack.

_ph_ 7y ago

I agree that having a battery which can be changed without opening the laptop case might require to make the laptop much thicker. However, Apple could do a lot to make battery service easier, so that anyone who has the correct screwdrivers can do it in 5 minutes. This would also cause more batteries to be exchanged for old age and thus further reduce the risk of fires. And, as this recall was about the MacBook pro, there is much more space for battery placement than in the smaller devices.