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I am wondering how long this non-removable battery fiasco is gonna last, instead of an expensive recall it would been a simple battery recall and swap that does

I am wondering how long this non-removable battery fiasco is gonna last, instead of an expensive recall it would been a simple battery recall and swap that doesn't involve leaving the laptop in service for any amount of time and doable on short notice so the travelers would not be inconvenienced. On top of that, when non-removable batteries fail, they usually take down the whole device with them beyond repair, while a properly placed removable battery at the edge (back) of the device would less likely do damage the device.

Zanni 7y ago
Indefinitely, because most people do not consider it a "fiasco." Have you seen what the batteries look like for, say, the new 13" Macbook Pro or the 12" Macbook? They're not bricks you could just feed into a slot. They're multi-part systems that distribute the battery through the gaps in the case. Fixing them in place means they don't need extra casing support, don't need to be near a specific edge and are flexible enough to maximize space usage inside the case. Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier, and there's a large contingent on HN that wants exactly that. But ... there's an even larger contingent outside the techi-verse that loves thin and light laptops.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AlexDragusin 7y ago
  Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in half. Customers would revolt, and far more noticeably than over mere keyboard problems.
    - userbinator 7y ago
      Besides that one pesky ribbon cable that could probably be rerouted under the battery pack easily, I see nothing else that prevents a removable battery containing multiple cells, which need not be rectangular overall.
    - AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
      In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing. Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasting significant internal volume with hard casing around the removable battery module which does not need to exist.
      - AlexDragusin 7y ago
        Just a matter of engineering which we are well capable of solving, as long as batteries are clearly labeled as consumable items [1] they should be user replaceable which given the limitations of current battery technology, would also reduce the friction, inconveniences and dangers presented in this particular case. Personally, I am not against thin devices and non removable batteries, it should be done in tandem as the technology will be aligned with this approach without compromising the user experience and ability to replace consumable components. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.html https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.htm...
- jammygit 7y ago
  I think the upcoming 16 inch MacBook will be a little thicker than before, and with one of the the older keyboards. They are maybe modifying their vision a tiny bit since their design lead left
- krn 7y ago
  > Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier Dell XPS 13 is both, thinner and lighter than Macbook Air, yet its battery replacement process is rated as "very easy"[1] by ifixit. The same applies to Dell XPS 15 vs Macbook Pro. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement/76060 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement...
  - eridius 7y ago
    Looks like the Dell XPS 13 uses a single rectangular battery, though it still requires unscrewing the whole case, disconnecting a battery cable, and then unscrewing the battery, so it's not something you can do on the fly. The 2018 MacBook Air battery isn't quite so neat and rectangular: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.h... And you can see here how it fits into all of the available space in the computer: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.h... Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity.
    - krn 7y ago
      > Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity. The point was, that despite getting rid of the single rectangular battery Macbook Air is neither thinner, nor lighter, nor more powerful, nor longer lasting on battery than Dell XPS 13.
    - kingosticks 7y ago
      It's also worth nothing that the XPS has a 52Whr battery and the 2018 Air had a 50.3Whr battery. Although you probably get worse battery life with the XPS (config dependent maybe), you've stil got to hand it to Dell here.
      - krn 7y ago
        In fact, Dell XPS 13 is twice as powerful as Macbook Air, but lasts only a little shorter on battery[1]. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-is-there-a-new-13-inch-laptop-champ/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-i...
- chrischen 7y ago
  Techverse also wants it. There's just a loud minority that want a desktop they can fit into a backpack.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  I agree that having a battery which can be changed without opening the laptop case might require to make the laptop much thicker. However, Apple could do a lot to make battery service easier, so that anyone who has the correct screwdrivers can do it in 5 minutes. This would also cause more batteries to be exchanged for old age and thus further reduce the risk of fires. And, as this recall was about the MacBook pro, there is much more space for battery placement than in the smaller devices.
snowwrestler 7y ago
Not sure making your mobile product bigger and heavier, just to cover the rare case that your batteries blow up, represents good engineering priorities. Instead of putting in the effort to engineer removable batteries, maybe Apple could instead put in the effort to engineer batteries that don’t blow up.
- AlexDragusin 7y ago
  Sure that is the way, for the meantime the technology in use comes with the risk of blowing up and it would be sensible to take that into consideration during engineering, among other things such as the inconveniences. Accepting the reality that the battery tech is lagging is far more desirable from an engineering point of view and work with that. If I am away from home and on the way back, upon checking in at the airport I am told I cannot bring the laptop, how would you supposed I would handle the situation? Throw it in a trash bin (I don't mind the encrypted data) but is this a solution, instead of simply discarding the battery instead? (in this particular case where there is a recall for a certain laptop).
AgloeDreams 7y ago
I think you're completely forgetting why they build them like this: It makes for a better laptop. The non-removable macbook can have a much larger battery due to not needing a case and entire user accessible portion of the machine. If Apple built this machine like how you are saying it would get half the battery life (keep in mind that this is a max performance model with battery life as low as 3 hours when used at max off charger) or would be much heavier and thicker and people. would. not. buy. it. It's a compromise whereas you make the repair (which hopefully should never happen) harder while making the daily use of the laptop entirely different.
systemtest 7y ago
My MacBook Pro 15" Retina has a 99,5 watt-hour battery. The biggest removable battery on a MacBook Pro was the 71 watt-hour one on the 17" non-unibody one. I like a bit of extra battery power.

Zanni 7y ago

Indefinitely, because most people do not consider it a "fiasco." Have you seen what the batteries look like for, say, the new 13" Macbook Pro or the 12" Macbook? They're not bricks you could just feed into a slot. They're multi-part systems that distribute the battery through the gaps in the case. Fixing them in place means they don't need extra casing support, don't need to be near a specific edge and are flexible enough to maximize space usage inside the case. Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier, and there's a large contingent on HN that wants exactly that. But ... there's an even larger contingent outside the techi-verse that loves thin and light laptops.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
AlexDragusin 7y ago
Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough together to demonstrate that it can be done even with the thin devices if the motivations were in the right place: https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png https://www.ypson.com/hn/battery-thin-device.png Took me a few minutes, surely this can be done given the budgets and great engineers available in the employ of the major companies.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in half. Customers would revolt, and far more noticeably than over mere keyboard problems.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    Besides that one pesky ribbon cable that could probably be rerouted under the battery pack easily, I see nothing else that prevents a removable battery containing multiple cells, which need not be rectangular overall.
  - AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
    In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing. Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasting significant internal volume with hard casing around the removable battery module which does not need to exist.
    - AlexDragusin 7y ago
      Just a matter of engineering which we are well capable of solving, as long as batteries are clearly labeled as consumable items [1] they should be user replaceable which given the limitations of current battery technology, would also reduce the friction, inconveniences and dangers presented in this particular case. Personally, I am not against thin devices and non removable batteries, it should be done in tandem as the technology will be aligned with this approach without compromising the user experience and ability to replace consumable components. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.html https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.htm...
jammygit 7y ago
I think the upcoming 16 inch MacBook will be a little thicker than before, and with one of the the older keyboards. They are maybe modifying their vision a tiny bit since their design lead left
krn 7y ago
> Yes, all those issues could be addressed by making Apple laptops thicker and heavier Dell XPS 13 is both, thinner and lighter than Macbook Air, yet its battery replacement process is rated as "very easy"[1] by ifixit. The same applies to Dell XPS 15 vs Macbook Pro. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement/76060 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+XPS+13+Battery+Replacement...
- eridius 7y ago
  Looks like the Dell XPS 13 uses a single rectangular battery, though it still requires unscrewing the whole case, disconnecting a battery cable, and then unscrewing the battery, so it's not something you can do on the fly. The 2018 MacBook Air battery isn't quite so neat and rectangular: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/HvCgVPqVQtVI5K5X.h... And you can see here how it fits into all of the available space in the computer: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.huge https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QUm4KjJyARQaSorr.h... Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity.
  - krn 7y ago
    > Switching this computer to using a simple battery like the Dell XPS 13 is using means sacrificing a significant amount of battery capacity. The point was, that despite getting rid of the single rectangular battery Macbook Air is neither thinner, nor lighter, nor more powerful, nor longer lasting on battery than Dell XPS 13.
  - kingosticks 7y ago
    It's also worth nothing that the XPS has a 52Whr battery and the 2018 Air had a 50.3Whr battery. Although you probably get worse battery life with the XPS (config dependent maybe), you've stil got to hand it to Dell here.
    - krn 7y ago
      In fact, Dell XPS 13 is twice as powerful as Macbook Air, but lasts only a little shorter on battery[1]. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-is-there-a-new-13-inch-laptop-champ/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-macbook-air-vs-dell-xps-13-i...
chrischen 7y ago
Techverse also wants it. There's just a loud minority that want a desktop they can fit into a backpack.
_ph_ 7y ago
I agree that having a battery which can be changed without opening the laptop case might require to make the laptop much thicker. However, Apple could do a lot to make battery service easier, so that anyone who has the correct screwdrivers can do it in 5 minutes. This would also cause more batteries to be exchanged for old age and thus further reduce the risk of fires. And, as this recall was about the MacBook pro, there is much more space for battery placement than in the smaller devices.

snowwrestler 7y ago

Not sure making your mobile product bigger and heavier, just to cover the rare case that your batteries blow up, represents good engineering priorities. Instead of putting in the effort to engineer removable batteries, maybe Apple could instead put in the effort to engineer batteries that don’t blow up.

AlexDragusin 7y ago
Sure that is the way, for the meantime the technology in use comes with the risk of blowing up and it would be sensible to take that into consideration during engineering, among other things such as the inconveniences. Accepting the reality that the battery tech is lagging is far more desirable from an engineering point of view and work with that. If I am away from home and on the way back, upon checking in at the airport I am told I cannot bring the laptop, how would you supposed I would handle the situation? Throw it in a trash bin (I don't mind the encrypted data) but is this a solution, instead of simply discarding the battery instead? (in this particular case where there is a recall for a certain laptop).

AgloeDreams 7y ago

I think you're completely forgetting why they build them like this: It makes for a better laptop. The non-removable macbook can have a much larger battery due to not needing a case and entire user accessible portion of the machine. If Apple built this machine like how you are saying it would get half the battery life (keep in mind that this is a max performance model with battery life as low as 3 hours when used at max off charger) or would be much heavier and thicker and people. would. not. buy. it. It's a compromise whereas you make the repair (which hopefully should never happen) harder while making the daily use of the laptop entirely different.

systemtest 7y ago

My MacBook Pro 15" Retina has a 99,5 watt-hour battery. The biggest removable battery on a MacBook Pro was the 71 watt-hour one on the 17" non-unibody one. I like a bit of extra battery power.