8 ms·

Honestly, inside me it makes me wonder if we're seeing the cultural movement toward more progressive ideals, or if we're just seeing the cumulative generational

Honestly, inside me it makes me wonder if we're seeing the cultural movement toward more progressive ideals, or if we're just seeing the cumulative generational shift away from what their parents stood for. Meaning - WWII's "the greatest generation" was a relatively conservative generation, and it's gone more liberal in terms of social movements ever since. Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism, or are we going to see children rebel against their parents and move toward more traditional and conservative values?

bnjms 7y ago
When we see the move back to conservatism we won’t recognize it as traditional. The things that were feared didn’t change society much so there won’t be a movement to return to old norms.
coldtea 7y ago
>Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism, or are we going to see children rebel against their parents and move toward more traditional and conservative values? We've already had it, remember Family Ties, the Yuppies, that "hippie" had become a dirty word, the "stick it to the Man" type a caricature, and so on? Those were still within the framework of Baby Boomers though. Now we'll see even more backlash. It's a tide, not a line...
rogerkirkness 7y ago
Gen X / early millenials are the last progressive liberal generation for sure. If you really think about what late millenials, etc. are about, it's both conservative and classical liberal, but not particularly 60s esque.
- 420codebro 7y ago
  (Gatekeeping intensifies.)
pjc50 7y ago
Maybe this is where all the young fascists are coming from. To be genuinely outrageous these days you've got to hurt people, or threaten to.
- saxonslav 7y ago
  The young fascists are usually just hardcore libertarian converts with ethnic ideals. Most right wing 2000s kids are just sick of progressive bullshit - particularly males, who form common talking points by shaking their heads at the world that doesn't want them to be males. Are they always right? No. But my generation has a point and the conservative uprising has its roots in a genuine unrest.
mruts 7y ago
I dunno, it doesn't seem like we are moving toward liberalism. Everyone wants everyone else kicked off a twitter, everyone wants censorship. Tumblr bans porn, youtube bans anything people complain about, cloudflare doesn't want to do business with 8chan, etc etc. These are all incredibly illiberal and having nothing to do with true liberalism. Liberalism, fundamentally, is about freedom (negative rights), both economic and social. The freedom to offend, to abhor, to hate, to disagree, to keep one's own money, to control one's own body, to decide himself how he should live his own life. This means legal drugs of all kinds, this means legal hate speech, legal death threats, legal sodomy, legal polygamy, legal bestiality, etc. We are so far away from this world of liberalism and freedom that it makes me sad every time I think about it. In fact, I feel like in the past few decades we are getting farther away still.
- tombert 7y ago
  Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it. What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't it part of Cloudflare's free speech to say "we don't want to be party to this"? Isn't it a very liberal position to say "all these private companies can do business with people that they want to"? Now, I'm actually totally willing to entertain the discussion that these corporations are so big that they should be either broken up and/or treated as utilities, but that seems to fight against classical liberalism. EDIT: Also, in the United States, it wasn't that long ago that marijuana possession was an enforceable crime in all fifty states, which is slowly going away. I wouldn't bring this up, except you mentioned drugs being illegal as some sort of evidence that we're becoming less liberal, despite the fact that cannabis legalization has been happening and expanding. Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles?
  - mruts 7y ago
    Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar situation, I might fold as well. And, like you said, classical liberalism is about freedom, for both corporations and individuals. I certainly don't think that censorship on these platforms should be illegal or anything. I'm just disappointed, I guess. I feel like the world is moving in the wrong direction. I always thought the internet was going to empower everyone and subvert centralized power structures. In some regards, it did and it still does. But these subversive upstarts are now the new centralized power structures and it seems like the next wave of subversion and decentralized has not happened yet and may not ever happen. It troubles me that the very same people arguing about a women's right to choose are slamming facebook and youtube and twitter for allowing people to express their opinions. It troubles me that these same people don't recognize the rights to buy and use drugs or consume pornography. The political axis of most people seem two multi-dimensional: They like some freedoms and want to take away others. But the way I see it there is only one dimension: oppression and tyranny on one end and free speech and individualism on the other. Social and economic freedoms go hand and hand, which is something both conservatives and liberals both seem to be confused about. Health care isn't a human right, housing isn't a human right, forcing businesses to transact with you if they don't want to isn't a human right. The only true human right is to live one's own life free from tyranny and oppression. To do anything that doesn't impinge upon another human's right to do the same. > Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles? Well, I mean, then maybe we should outlaw animals having sex with each other? It's not like they give consent to each other. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/business/youtube-remove-extremist-videos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/business/youtube-remove-e...
Izkata 7y ago
Neither. The shift towards liberalism has significantly slowed and even reversed on some issues with Gen Z, but the result isn't looking anything like traditionally conservative values. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2017/08/11/why-democrats-should-be-losing-sleep-over-generation-z/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2017/08/11/why-demo... https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-look...

bnjms 7y ago

When we see the move back to conservatism we won’t recognize it as traditional. The things that were feared didn’t change society much so there won’t be a movement to return to old norms.

coldtea 7y ago

>Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism, or are we going to see children rebel against their parents and move toward more traditional and conservative values? We've already had it, remember Family Ties, the Yuppies, that "hippie" had become a dirty word, the "stick it to the Man" type a caricature, and so on? Those were still within the framework of Baby Boomers though. Now we'll see even more backlash. It's a tide, not a line...

rogerkirkness 7y ago

Gen X / early millenials are the last progressive liberal generation for sure. If you really think about what late millenials, etc. are about, it's both conservative and classical liberal, but not particularly 60s esque.

420codebro 7y ago
(Gatekeeping intensifies.)

pjc50 7y ago

Maybe this is where all the young fascists are coming from. To be genuinely outrageous these days you've got to hurt people, or threaten to.

saxonslav 7y ago
The young fascists are usually just hardcore libertarian converts with ethnic ideals. Most right wing 2000s kids are just sick of progressive bullshit - particularly males, who form common talking points by shaking their heads at the world that doesn't want them to be males. Are they always right? No. But my generation has a point and the conservative uprising has its roots in a genuine unrest.

mruts 7y ago

I dunno, it doesn't seem like we are moving toward liberalism. Everyone wants everyone else kicked off a twitter, everyone wants censorship. Tumblr bans porn, youtube bans anything people complain about, cloudflare doesn't want to do business with 8chan, etc etc. These are all incredibly illiberal and having nothing to do with true liberalism. Liberalism, fundamentally, is about freedom (negative rights), both economic and social. The freedom to offend, to abhor, to hate, to disagree, to keep one's own money, to control one's own body, to decide himself how he should live his own life. This means legal drugs of all kinds, this means legal hate speech, legal death threats, legal sodomy, legal polygamy, legal bestiality, etc. We are so far away from this world of liberalism and freedom that it makes me sad every time I think about it. In fact, I feel like in the past few decades we are getting farther away still.

tombert 7y ago
Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it. What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't it part of Cloudflare's free speech to say "we don't want to be party to this"? Isn't it a very liberal position to say "all these private companies can do business with people that they want to"? Now, I'm actually totally willing to entertain the discussion that these corporations are so big that they should be either broken up and/or treated as utilities, but that seems to fight against classical liberalism. EDIT: Also, in the United States, it wasn't that long ago that marijuana possession was an enforceable crime in all fifty states, which is slowly going away. I wouldn't bring this up, except you mentioned drugs being illegal as some sort of evidence that we're becoming less liberal, despite the fact that cannabis legalization has been happening and expanding. Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles?
- mruts 7y ago
  Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar situation, I might fold as well. And, like you said, classical liberalism is about freedom, for both corporations and individuals. I certainly don't think that censorship on these platforms should be illegal or anything. I'm just disappointed, I guess. I feel like the world is moving in the wrong direction. I always thought the internet was going to empower everyone and subvert centralized power structures. In some regards, it did and it still does. But these subversive upstarts are now the new centralized power structures and it seems like the next wave of subversion and decentralized has not happened yet and may not ever happen. It troubles me that the very same people arguing about a women's right to choose are slamming facebook and youtube and twitter for allowing people to express their opinions. It troubles me that these same people don't recognize the rights to buy and use drugs or consume pornography. The political axis of most people seem two multi-dimensional: They like some freedoms and want to take away others. But the way I see it there is only one dimension: oppression and tyranny on one end and free speech and individualism on the other. Social and economic freedoms go hand and hand, which is something both conservatives and liberals both seem to be confused about. Health care isn't a human right, housing isn't a human right, forcing businesses to transact with you if they don't want to isn't a human right. The only true human right is to live one's own life free from tyranny and oppression. To do anything that doesn't impinge upon another human's right to do the same. > Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles? Well, I mean, then maybe we should outlaw animals having sex with each other? It's not like they give consent to each other. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/business/youtube-remove-extremist-videos.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/business/youtube-remove-e...

Izkata 7y ago

Neither. The shift towards liberalism has significantly slowed and even reversed on some issues with Gen Z, but the result isn't looking anything like traditionally conservative values. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2017/08/11/why-democrats-should-be-losing-sleep-over-generation-z/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2017/08/11/why-demo... https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-look...