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>serious socialistic regime on the left and right What's the connection between "great propaganda power" and "serious socialistic regime"? Also what's a "soci

by mLuby 7y ago

>serious socialistic regime on the left and right What's the connection between "great propaganda power" and "serious socialistic regime"? Also what's a "socialistic regime on the right"?

nindalf 7y ago
Not the person you were replying to but there's this strange idea amongst alt-right folks that Nazis were socialists because the party called itself the National Socialist party. Could be referring to that.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Interestingly, these same folks are somehow able to see through the "Democratic Republic" part of "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". An odd blind spot.
  - drak0n1c 7y ago
    It's not a blind spot. They are not conservatives, they do not believe in liberty and God-given individual rights. Actual alt-righters oppose capitalism and believe in economically socialist and communitarian ideas. Similarly but to a lesser degree, "far-right" parties in Europe are oftentimes more economically socialist than their mainstream center-left and center-right opponents. Le Pen vs Macron is an example.
- Der_Einzige 7y ago
  There was a genuinely "left-wing" part of the Nazi party (Strassurists)[1], though they along with their leader (Ernst Rohm)[2] were purged in the night of the long knives (also known as the Rohm purge)[3] The Germans had a term for communists who swapped to the Nazi party - Beefsteak Nazis[4]. Brown on the outside and red on the inside. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi
- cicero 7y ago
  These things sound like a kind of socialism to me (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics). "Various work programs designed to establish full-employment for the German population were instituted once the Nazis seized full national power. Hitler encouraged nationally supported projects like the construction of the Autobahn highway system, the introduction of an affordable people's car (Volkswagen) and later the Nazis bolstered the economy through the business and employment generated by military rearmament. The Nazis benefited early in the regime's existence from the first post–Depression economic upswing, and this combined with their public works projects, job-procurement program and subsidised home repair program reduced unemployment by as much as 40 percent in one year. ... Upon being appointed Chancellor in 1933, Hitler promised measures to increase employment, protect the German currency, and promote recovery from the Great Depression. These included an agrarian settlement program, labor service, and a guarantee to maintain health care and pensions." Of course, you could say that Republicans in the United States have also done some of these things, but again, that would be Socialism on the right.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Nation-scale political movements are rarely 100% or 0% anything, but I don't see how you could read that entire section and go "yup, that all sounds like socialism". Opposition to social welfare, soliciting the involvement of businesses, going after unions and the left. Vox has a pretty good explainer of the differences between Hitler's National Socialism and socialism. https://www.vox.com/2019/3/27/18283879/nazism-socialism-hitler-gop-brooks-gohmert https://www.vox.com/2019/3/27/18283879/nazism-socialism-hitl...
- aldoushuxley001 7y ago
  I don't see how the Nazi's were right-wing, seems pretty clear based on their excessively centralized government that they were more left-wing than not.
  - wtdata 7y ago
    Here we go again... Seriously, it's not difficult to understand that any majorly autocratic government, left or right, needs a centralized government by definition. That is got nothing to do with being left or right, but with being liberal or autocratic.
    - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
      Well ideas on the left of the political spectrum generally demand larger more centralized governments, because it's required to implement heavy-handed government interventions; whereas, ideas on the right, traditionally, are about smaller government and therefore tend to have much less of a centralized government. Note I say ideas here, because the reality is e.g. the republicans in the US are for the most part big government politicans despite being on the right, but that seems more a bastardization of the traditional right, which historically is about smaller government. So generally speaking, because left wing political ideas tend to involve big government, it means that centralization is generally more extensive in left wing governments, and I would argue thus left wing governments are more liable to be autocratic.
- jkingsbery 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "alt-right..." Usually that means something specific (For a good summary see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHXL00wY3nY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHXL00wY3nY). Among the people who have written about how the National Socialists were socialists is Jonah Goldberg (see https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0767917189 https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Po...), whom you might not like, but is not alt-right, in that he disagrees with the alt-right on almost everything.
cicero 7y ago
Socialism requires a powerful centralized government. Powerful centralized governments have the means to great propaganda power since they control most of the media, and they usually need to use that power because the people won't always like the choices the government makes for them. Although left and right are ambiguous terms, a generally agreed upon example of a socialistic regime on the right is Nazi Germany. Nazi is short for National Socialism. Whereas Soviet Communism was a socialist system with a goal of spreading throughout the world by a series of revolutions, National Socialism was a socialist system with a goal of spreading throughout the world via German conquest. Both aspired to world domination, but the means were different.
mc32 7y ago
Socialistic ~= command economy, state ownership or heavy control of economy. USSR, PRC, imperial Japan and various fascist regimes in Europe (Germany, Italy).
- minwell 7y ago
  Sorry, but I have to correct you that PRC is running "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" after 1978, and is totally different from your narrative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_charact..., you can think it as a kind of national running capitalism.

by mLuby 7y ago

>serious socialistic regime on the left and right What's the connection between "great propaganda power" and "serious socialistic regime"? Also what's a "socialistic regime on the right"?

nindalf 7y ago

Not the person you were replying to but there's this strange idea amongst alt-right folks that Nazis were socialists because the party called itself the National Socialist party. Could be referring to that.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Interestingly, these same folks are somehow able to see through the "Democratic Republic" part of "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". An odd blind spot.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  It's not a blind spot. They are not conservatives, they do not believe in liberty and God-given individual rights. Actual alt-righters oppose capitalism and believe in economically socialist and communitarian ideas. Similarly but to a lesser degree, "far-right" parties in Europe are oftentimes more economically socialist than their mainstream center-left and center-right opponents. Le Pen vs Macron is an example.
Der_Einzige 7y ago
There was a genuinely "left-wing" part of the Nazi party (Strassurists)[1], though they along with their leader (Ernst Rohm)[2] were purged in the night of the long knives (also known as the Rohm purge)[3] The Germans had a term for communists who swapped to the Nazi party - Beefsteak Nazis[4]. Brown on the outside and red on the inside. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Nazi
cicero 7y ago
These things sound like a kind of socialism to me (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics). "Various work programs designed to establish full-employment for the German population were instituted once the Nazis seized full national power. Hitler encouraged nationally supported projects like the construction of the Autobahn highway system, the introduction of an affordable people's car (Volkswagen) and later the Nazis bolstered the economy through the business and employment generated by military rearmament. The Nazis benefited early in the regime's existence from the first post–Depression economic upswing, and this combined with their public works projects, job-procurement program and subsidised home repair program reduced unemployment by as much as 40 percent in one year. ... Upon being appointed Chancellor in 1933, Hitler promised measures to increase employment, protect the German currency, and promote recovery from the Great Depression. These included an agrarian settlement program, labor service, and a guarantee to maintain health care and pensions." Of course, you could say that Republicans in the United States have also done some of these things, but again, that would be Socialism on the right.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Nation-scale political movements are rarely 100% or 0% anything, but I don't see how you could read that entire section and go "yup, that all sounds like socialism". Opposition to social welfare, soliciting the involvement of businesses, going after unions and the left. Vox has a pretty good explainer of the differences between Hitler's National Socialism and socialism. https://www.vox.com/2019/3/27/18283879/nazism-socialism-hitler-gop-brooks-gohmert https://www.vox.com/2019/3/27/18283879/nazism-socialism-hitl...
aldoushuxley001 7y ago
I don't see how the Nazi's were right-wing, seems pretty clear based on their excessively centralized government that they were more left-wing than not.
- wtdata 7y ago
  Here we go again... Seriously, it's not difficult to understand that any majorly autocratic government, left or right, needs a centralized government by definition. That is got nothing to do with being left or right, but with being liberal or autocratic.
  - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
    Well ideas on the left of the political spectrum generally demand larger more centralized governments, because it's required to implement heavy-handed government interventions; whereas, ideas on the right, traditionally, are about smaller government and therefore tend to have much less of a centralized government. Note I say ideas here, because the reality is e.g. the republicans in the US are for the most part big government politicans despite being on the right, but that seems more a bastardization of the traditional right, which historically is about smaller government. So generally speaking, because left wing political ideas tend to involve big government, it means that centralization is generally more extensive in left wing governments, and I would argue thus left wing governments are more liable to be autocratic.
jkingsbery 7y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "alt-right..." Usually that means something specific (For a good summary see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHXL00wY3nY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHXL00wY3nY). Among the people who have written about how the National Socialists were socialists is Jonah Goldberg (see https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0767917189 https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Po...), whom you might not like, but is not alt-right, in that he disagrees with the alt-right on almost everything.

cicero 7y ago

Socialism requires a powerful centralized government. Powerful centralized governments have the means to great propaganda power since they control most of the media, and they usually need to use that power because the people won't always like the choices the government makes for them. Although left and right are ambiguous terms, a generally agreed upon example of a socialistic regime on the right is Nazi Germany. Nazi is short for National Socialism. Whereas Soviet Communism was a socialist system with a goal of spreading throughout the world by a series of revolutions, National Socialism was a socialist system with a goal of spreading throughout the world via German conquest. Both aspired to world domination, but the means were different.

mc32 7y ago

Socialistic ~= command economy, state ownership or heavy control of economy. USSR, PRC, imperial Japan and various fascist regimes in Europe (Germany, Italy).

minwell 7y ago
Sorry, but I have to correct you that PRC is running "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" after 1978, and is totally different from your narrative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_charact..., you can think it as a kind of national running capitalism.