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As I’ve gotten more senior in my career, I think one of the most enlightening things has been anticipating debt before it happens (in planning/architecting), ac

As I’ve gotten more senior in my career, I think one of the most enlightening things has been anticipating debt before it happens (in planning/architecting), acknowledging it when it does and then taking prudent measures to minimize it and log it for future refactoring. It’s also been funny seeing managers try to rebrand tech debt with other business speak like “tech health”. Debt shouldn’t be a bad thing but one that’s anticipated and respected.

GeneralMayhem 7y ago
"Health" of a system isn't synonymous with debt. It's what happens when debt isn't respected and becomes bad. Debt is a tool; health is a state. If you carry six months of salary as credit card debt,a financial advisor isn't going to talk about how you're using debt as a tool, they're going to talk about your "financial health".
ThePadawan 7y ago
The term "debt" is really helpful. It also explains that while you can pay off debts by taking on other debts, there is a good reason why this is illegal (if done with money) in the real world. Technical debt in your solution is fine. Running a Ponzi scheme in your solution isn't.
- isostatic 7y ago
  > while you can pay off debts by taking on other debts, there is a good reason why this is illegal Loan consolidation is quite normal in the UK
  - ThePadawan 7y ago
    Sorry, I was mentally adding "without the consent of both parties". Because otherwise, what would stop you taking on a loan for X, then paying it off after a while by taking on the same amount from another bank?
    - pbowyer 7y ago
      > Because otherwise, what would stop you taking on a loan for X, then paying it off after a while by taking on the same amount from another bank? Nothing. That's why lenders do credit checks and due diligence.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Absolutely nothing stops you. The bank you owe money to has no rights whatsoever to control where the payoff money comes from. https://www.moneycrashers.com/responsible-use-0-balance-transfer-credit-cards-debt/ https://www.moneycrashers.com/responsible-use-0-balance-tran...
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        The bank lending the money may we'll care where it's going. A bank's primary business is managing risk. And borrowing from Peter to pay Paul (having previously borrowed from Paul) is a significantly different risk profile than borrowing for investment or even present consumption.
    - jeremyjh 7y ago
      In business/commercial lending the purpose of the loan is typically a part of the contract. You can’t say you will use the money to buy equipment and then use it to pay off another debt. Also you will have to provide regular (yearly/quarterly) financial statements (typically audited) that include a balance sheet that would list all outstanding debts and assets. As long as you abide by all your existing and future loan covenants you certainly can use loans to pay off debt and many people do. When you can’t it’s due to contracts, not “laws”.
- dspillett 7y ago
  > there is a good reason why this is illegal (if done with money) in the real world. Erm, it very much isn't illegal. At least not in most places. Taking on fresh debt to pay off other debt is the very definition of a consolidation loan which is perfectly legal in most, possibly all, jurisdictions. There are limits of course, like not using a loan to pay the deposit on a mortgage, or simply not lending beyond defined means, but these are set by the bank to manage their own exposure to risk rather than limits set by law. Such limits are merely encouraged by law, via regulatory limits on standing capital compared to debt held and so forth.
  - joshlegs 7y ago
    also basically any 'balance transfer' option on pretty much every credit card ever.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    In the brick and mortar world rolling debt is common.
- notabee 7y ago
  I think debt is also useful for the interest metaphor. An unfinished kludge by itself may not be very expensive to fix up and change, but if that kludge doesn't change and becomes a dependency in a complex environment it is likely to become much more painful to fix later.
ebiester 7y ago
Managers rebrand because their bosses and non-technical people start ignoring a term once it's used long enough, so we have to market it in another way. There's also a distinction between "we made intentional decisions that we need to fix up now" and "We (or people before us) made unintentional decisions and it is in such a bad state that it endangers the health of the business."
Jestar342 7y ago
I've also come to realise that technical debt is everything. Anything that is resistant to change is technical debt, which includes the code you are writing "now", whether you anticipate its need to change in the future or not. There's the stuff that you know is painful or messy, but then there's the stuff that is suitable for today's needs but those needs may change in the future. Nothing is free from debt.

GeneralMayhem 7y ago

"Health" of a system isn't synonymous with debt. It's what happens when debt isn't respected and becomes bad. Debt is a tool; health is a state. If you carry six months of salary as credit card debt,a financial advisor isn't going to talk about how you're using debt as a tool, they're going to talk about your "financial health".

ThePadawan 7y ago

The term "debt" is really helpful. It also explains that while you can pay off debts by taking on other debts, there is a good reason why this is illegal (if done with money) in the real world. Technical debt in your solution is fine. Running a Ponzi scheme in your solution isn't.

isostatic 7y ago
> while you can pay off debts by taking on other debts, there is a good reason why this is illegal Loan consolidation is quite normal in the UK
- ThePadawan 7y ago
  Sorry, I was mentally adding "without the consent of both parties". Because otherwise, what would stop you taking on a loan for X, then paying it off after a while by taking on the same amount from another bank?
  - pbowyer 7y ago
    > Because otherwise, what would stop you taking on a loan for X, then paying it off after a while by taking on the same amount from another bank? Nothing. That's why lenders do credit checks and due diligence.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Absolutely nothing stops you. The bank you owe money to has no rights whatsoever to control where the payoff money comes from. https://www.moneycrashers.com/responsible-use-0-balance-transfer-credit-cards-debt/ https://www.moneycrashers.com/responsible-use-0-balance-tran...
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      The bank lending the money may we'll care where it's going. A bank's primary business is managing risk. And borrowing from Peter to pay Paul (having previously borrowed from Paul) is a significantly different risk profile than borrowing for investment or even present consumption.
  - jeremyjh 7y ago
    In business/commercial lending the purpose of the loan is typically a part of the contract. You can’t say you will use the money to buy equipment and then use it to pay off another debt. Also you will have to provide regular (yearly/quarterly) financial statements (typically audited) that include a balance sheet that would list all outstanding debts and assets. As long as you abide by all your existing and future loan covenants you certainly can use loans to pay off debt and many people do. When you can’t it’s due to contracts, not “laws”.
dspillett 7y ago
> there is a good reason why this is illegal (if done with money) in the real world. Erm, it very much isn't illegal. At least not in most places. Taking on fresh debt to pay off other debt is the very definition of a consolidation loan which is perfectly legal in most, possibly all, jurisdictions. There are limits of course, like not using a loan to pay the deposit on a mortgage, or simply not lending beyond defined means, but these are set by the bank to manage their own exposure to risk rather than limits set by law. Such limits are merely encouraged by law, via regulatory limits on standing capital compared to debt held and so forth.
- joshlegs 7y ago
  also basically any 'balance transfer' option on pretty much every credit card ever.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  In the brick and mortar world rolling debt is common.
notabee 7y ago
I think debt is also useful for the interest metaphor. An unfinished kludge by itself may not be very expensive to fix up and change, but if that kludge doesn't change and becomes a dependency in a complex environment it is likely to become much more painful to fix later.

ebiester 7y ago

Managers rebrand because their bosses and non-technical people start ignoring a term once it's used long enough, so we have to market it in another way. There's also a distinction between "we made intentional decisions that we need to fix up now" and "We (or people before us) made unintentional decisions and it is in such a bad state that it endangers the health of the business."

Jestar342 7y ago

I've also come to realise that technical debt is everything. Anything that is resistant to change is technical debt, which includes the code you are writing "now", whether you anticipate its need to change in the future or not. There's the stuff that you know is painful or messy, but then there's the stuff that is suitable for today's needs but those needs may change in the future. Nothing is free from debt.