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The comparison with Tesla is not valid: when you buy a Tesla, you buy a Tesla from Tesla. When you buy a Boeing 787, you chose the engines (GE or Rolls Royce) a

by Xixi 7y ago

The comparison with Tesla is not valid: when you buy a Tesla, you buy a Tesla from Tesla. When you buy a Boeing 787, you chose the engines (GE or Rolls Royce) and buy them directly from the engine maker. You would also sign a maintenance/support contract with the engine maker directly. It is not rare for plane contracts and engine contracts to not be signed simultaneously: the engine maker might be decided months after the contract for the 787 is firmed. Aircraft engines do not qualify as "some 3rd party component". A slightly better comparison (but not perfect) would be if you buy a server from Dell with an Intel microprocessor, and there's an issue with that Intel chip: will you blame Intel or Dell? After all you could have picked a Dell server with an AMD processor.

apexalpha 7y ago
Are you telling me airlines have to order and directly buy the engines themselves? Surely not?
- Xixi 7y ago
  Why wouldn't they? Engines are by far the most expensive and critical parts of an airliner. So airlines issue RFPs to engine makers to extract the best possible price/conditions. The result of these RFPs is usually a matter of public announcement, see for instance the choice of CFM (a joint venture between GE and Safran) to power IndiGo A320NEO: https://www.ft.com/content/d1c20f9e-9119-11e9-aea1-2b1d33ac3271 https://www.ft.com/content/d1c20f9e-9119-11e9-aea1-2b1d33ac3.... The contract is signed directly between the airline and the engine maker. Of course the engines are installed by the OEM (Boeing, Airbus, etc.), as otherwise delivering the plane would be problematic to say the least... EDIT: another, more relevant example: Norwegian ordered 19 Boeing 787-9 in October 2015, and selected Rolls-Royce to power them in February 2016 (https://atwonline.com/engines/norwegian-selects-rolls-royce-engines-787s https://atwonline.com/engines/norwegian-selects-rolls-royce-...)
- kayfox 7y ago
  The engines need to be overhauled and sometimes replaced several times over an aircraft's lifetime, so they are often swapped out and overhauled and then installed on another aircraft. Not only that, but some injection of new engines into the pool is needed. So airlines sign big contracts with engine manufacturers for new engines, parts, supplies, training, etc. This also happens even with small single engine airplanes, those engines need overhauls every so many thousand hours, so one option is to trade in your old engine for a refurbished one instead of overhauling and keeping the same engine. For some larger fleets companies have contracts with engineer manufacturers or service centers for this.
mikl 7y ago
It's not like they can buy any old engine and slap it under the wing. The two engine choices are deeply integrated in the final package. Boeing has been collaborating with R-R and GE for years on software and hardware integration. The engines are also mounted to the air-frame at Boeing's facilities (since the plane can't really leave under its own power until that happens), so whether the airline pays Boeing or R-R for the engine is just an administrative detail. As for the server comparison, if you buy a Dell computer, your warranty is from Dell. If something needs to be fixed, Dell will do it and then argue with Intel about who foots the final bill. The airplane world is a lot more complex, and that is exactly my point – the blame is not 100% with R-R and 0% with Boeing – or vice versa. There's plenty of blame to go around.

by Xixi 7y ago

apexalpha 7y ago

Are you telling me airlines have to order and directly buy the engines themselves? Surely not?

Xixi 7y ago
Why wouldn't they? Engines are by far the most expensive and critical parts of an airliner. So airlines issue RFPs to engine makers to extract the best possible price/conditions. The result of these RFPs is usually a matter of public announcement, see for instance the choice of CFM (a joint venture between GE and Safran) to power IndiGo A320NEO: https://www.ft.com/content/d1c20f9e-9119-11e9-aea1-2b1d33ac3271 https://www.ft.com/content/d1c20f9e-9119-11e9-aea1-2b1d33ac3.... The contract is signed directly between the airline and the engine maker. Of course the engines are installed by the OEM (Boeing, Airbus, etc.), as otherwise delivering the plane would be problematic to say the least... EDIT: another, more relevant example: Norwegian ordered 19 Boeing 787-9 in October 2015, and selected Rolls-Royce to power them in February 2016 (https://atwonline.com/engines/norwegian-selects-rolls-royce-engines-787s https://atwonline.com/engines/norwegian-selects-rolls-royce-...)
kayfox 7y ago
The engines need to be overhauled and sometimes replaced several times over an aircraft's lifetime, so they are often swapped out and overhauled and then installed on another aircraft. Not only that, but some injection of new engines into the pool is needed. So airlines sign big contracts with engine manufacturers for new engines, parts, supplies, training, etc. This also happens even with small single engine airplanes, those engines need overhauls every so many thousand hours, so one option is to trade in your old engine for a refurbished one instead of overhauling and keeping the same engine. For some larger fleets companies have contracts with engineer manufacturers or service centers for this.

mikl 7y ago

It's not like they can buy any old engine and slap it under the wing. The two engine choices are deeply integrated in the final package. Boeing has been collaborating with R-R and GE for years on software and hardware integration. The engines are also mounted to the air-frame at Boeing's facilities (since the plane can't really leave under its own power until that happens), so whether the airline pays Boeing or R-R for the engine is just an administrative detail. As for the server comparison, if you buy a Dell computer, your warranty is from Dell. If something needs to be fixed, Dell will do it and then argue with Intel about who foots the final bill. The airplane world is a lot more complex, and that is exactly my point – the blame is not 100% with R-R and 0% with Boeing – or vice versa. There's plenty of blame to go around.