6 ms·

Germany already has extremely high energy prices (~0,29€/kwh) of which nearly 0,07€ is just for renewable energy subsidies. More investments will not increase j

by JanSt 7y ago

Germany already has extremely high energy prices (~0,29€/kwh) of which nearly 0,07€ is just for renewable energy subsidies. More investments will not increase jobs, because China produces solar panels at way lower costs. While I agree that coal needs to be phased out, it's not so much about the 20k jobs but more so about base-load. You either need massive storage (which comes at massive cost) or some other form, i.e. nuclear. Germany could have very low CO2 emissions if coal would have been cut first, not nuclear energy.

martin_a 7y ago
No doubt that we can't produce solar panels cheaper than China. I would look more into inventing and developing storage technologies. That is a world wide market, not dependend on any specific type of renewable energy. That's probably where Germany could "shine" if you want to phrase it like that. And if we got that going for us, neither coal nor nuclear are needed anymore. Probably. (Although I'm all in for new nuclear technologies I think our aging reactors are nothing to be proud of. Maybe we could create new jobs in fusion reactor research and development, too. I'd like that.)
- patrickk 7y ago
  I wonder if the announced VW EV factory battery investment will have a long-term impact on lithium-ion battery knowledge and supply chain in Germany, especially for grid storage. Lithium ion batteries initially became popular for laptops and smartphones, and by a nice coincidence made it cheaper to build EVs. We need the same to happen for grid storage. Germany has the manufacturing know-how and high electricity costs, so it would be an ideal place to come up with a solution. > (Although I'm all in for new nuclear technologies I think our aging reactors are nothing to be proud of. Maybe we could create new jobs in fusion reactor research and development, too. I'd like that.) I think nuclear will be too expensive by the time new plants would be built - 10+ years judging by the projects in the UK and Finland. Germany would be at least as slow as them, especially with the strong anti-nuclear sentiment locally, which would probably lead to ongoing protests and lawsuits.
pjc50 7y ago
It seems ridiculous to pay such high prices and have high coal emissions. Someone's stealing something.
- hokkos 7y ago
  It is just that renewable forces you to have redundant power generation, massive grid infrastructure, and because they started to early had to pay a massive premium without having the luxury of having developed domestics champions for solar due to the irregular incentives and smaller market than china.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Not sure I buy this line of argument when comparing to the UK: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... versus https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/09/27/renewables-hit-record-37-1-share-of-uk-generation/ https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/09/27/renewables-hit-rec... or https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/720182/Press_Notice_June_18.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... The renewable fraction in both cases is just over 30%, but the UK has managed to phase out coal in favour of lower-carbon gas. UK prices average around €0.14 per kWh. Maybe the difference is made up by wind, but there Germany has a huge domestic champion: Siemens.
    - philipkglass 7y ago
      Germany has encountered resistance both to additional onshore wind projects and to the necessary transmission infrastructure for moving onshore wind power around the country: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/fighting-windmills-when-growth-hits-resistance https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/fighting-windmill... https://www.dw.com/en/germany-protesters-oppose-suedlink-wind-energy-cable/a-48437451 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-protesters-oppose-suedlink-win... There is less resistance to offshore wind projects and to small scale distributed solar. Both of these generating resources are more expensive than onshore wind farms. Even in the matter of distributed solar, note that the peak installation rate was back in 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#Generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#Generat... Germany not only installed a lot of a particularly expensive kind of renewable capacity (distributed solar). It did most of that installation some time ago when it was even more expensive to install. And it did so in a very sunlight-constrained climate, so each kilowatt of capacity generates much less energy than in Italy, Spain, or the US. Since industry threatened to just relocate if higher electricity costs were passed on, residential and commercial electricity customers have borne the financial brunt of the renewable buildout while heavy industry was spared. The UK did better by phasing out coal in favor of gas faster than Germany and not installing significant solar capacity until the hardware had become much cheaper. The UK's renewable additions were almost exclusively wind until 2011. The UK started deploying significant solar several years later than Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom#Solar_PV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_King... Between deliberately choosing to pioneer solar PV installations in a low-sun country, phasing out nuclear power, and acting to placate the powerful domestic coal lobby, Germany has really spent a lot of money to accomplish a very modest degree of decarbonization.

by JanSt 7y ago

martin_a 7y ago

No doubt that we can't produce solar panels cheaper than China. I would look more into inventing and developing storage technologies. That is a world wide market, not dependend on any specific type of renewable energy. That's probably where Germany could "shine" if you want to phrase it like that. And if we got that going for us, neither coal nor nuclear are needed anymore. Probably. (Although I'm all in for new nuclear technologies I think our aging reactors are nothing to be proud of. Maybe we could create new jobs in fusion reactor research and development, too. I'd like that.)

patrickk 7y ago
I wonder if the announced VW EV factory battery investment will have a long-term impact on lithium-ion battery knowledge and supply chain in Germany, especially for grid storage. Lithium ion batteries initially became popular for laptops and smartphones, and by a nice coincidence made it cheaper to build EVs. We need the same to happen for grid storage. Germany has the manufacturing know-how and high electricity costs, so it would be an ideal place to come up with a solution. > (Although I'm all in for new nuclear technologies I think our aging reactors are nothing to be proud of. Maybe we could create new jobs in fusion reactor research and development, too. I'd like that.) I think nuclear will be too expensive by the time new plants would be built - 10+ years judging by the projects in the UK and Finland. Germany would be at least as slow as them, especially with the strong anti-nuclear sentiment locally, which would probably lead to ongoing protests and lawsuits.

pjc50 7y ago

It seems ridiculous to pay such high prices and have high coal emissions. Someone's stealing something.

hokkos 7y ago
It is just that renewable forces you to have redundant power generation, massive grid infrastructure, and because they started to early had to pay a massive premium without having the luxury of having developed domestics champions for solar due to the irregular incentives and smaller market than china.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Not sure I buy this line of argument when comparing to the UK: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... versus https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/09/27/renewables-hit-record-37-1-share-of-uk-generation/ https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/09/27/renewables-hit-rec... or https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/720182/Press_Notice_June_18.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... The renewable fraction in both cases is just over 30%, but the UK has managed to phase out coal in favour of lower-carbon gas. UK prices average around €0.14 per kWh. Maybe the difference is made up by wind, but there Germany has a huge domestic champion: Siemens.
  - philipkglass 7y ago
    Germany has encountered resistance both to additional onshore wind projects and to the necessary transmission infrastructure for moving onshore wind power around the country: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/fighting-windmills-when-growth-hits-resistance https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/fighting-windmill... https://www.dw.com/en/germany-protesters-oppose-suedlink-wind-energy-cable/a-48437451 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-protesters-oppose-suedlink-win... There is less resistance to offshore wind projects and to small scale distributed solar. Both of these generating resources are more expensive than onshore wind farms. Even in the matter of distributed solar, note that the peak installation rate was back in 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#Generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany#Generat... Germany not only installed a lot of a particularly expensive kind of renewable capacity (distributed solar). It did most of that installation some time ago when it was even more expensive to install. And it did so in a very sunlight-constrained climate, so each kilowatt of capacity generates much less energy than in Italy, Spain, or the US. Since industry threatened to just relocate if higher electricity costs were passed on, residential and commercial electricity customers have borne the financial brunt of the renewable buildout while heavy industry was spared. The UK did better by phasing out coal in favor of gas faster than Germany and not installing significant solar capacity until the hardware had become much cheaper. The UK's renewable additions were almost exclusively wind until 2011. The UK started deploying significant solar several years later than Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom#Solar_PV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_King... Between deliberately choosing to pioneer solar PV installations in a low-sun country, phasing out nuclear power, and acting to placate the powerful domestic coal lobby, Germany has really spent a lot of money to accomplish a very modest degree of decarbonization.