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Toxic femininity is actually a utilized term in the same spheres as toxic masculinity was coined (ie. Academia). Toxic masculinity is not against men but agains

Toxic femininity is actually a utilized term in the same spheres as toxic masculinity was coined (ie. Academia). Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness, are justified in expressing their anger with violence, and that showing aggressive behavior instead of genuinely healthy human bonding is an acceptable and many substitute. It forces pressure on men to be unable to report when they’ve been sexually assaulted, when they’re anxious, in need of comfort, when they’re mentally ill, etc. This is how I’ve understood the concept and it seems to fit with the claim that “I am a man and my parents emotionally abused me in response to my deep anxiety disorder in my childhood to force me to avoid treatment for decades”. Toxic femininity is the same sort of societal expectations for women that are toxic. Women have more pressure to avoid being assertive even when their personalities are naturally more aggressive. That a mother is a mother first and a person second, such that everything she may do as a mother reflects on her worth as a human being. EDIT: Regarding 'toxic femininity' I've been corrected that this isn't widespread used in this way. It's probably just used this way in my own academic circle and I had made an incorrect assumption. Thanks HN.

nesadi 7y ago
> Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness It seriously needs a name change, because the name implies that masculinity is toxic and that's how I've seen it interpreted.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  That's how a lot of people interpret it. That people take that away may be deliberate, if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M.
  - krapp 7y ago
    >if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M. Toxic masculinity as a concept was invented by the mythopoeic men's movement in the 1980s, and later taken up in mainstream feminist critique. It was not invented by feminists, and certainly not invented by radical feminists.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
malvosenior 7y ago
I don’t think toxic femininity is used by academics: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity (That’s a horrible website but I know a lot of feminists use it as gospel). I’ve never heard it used with your definition. A quick google search also shows nothing. “Toxic masculinity” is a divisive term that needs to go away.
xenihn 7y ago
Your definition is not what the average person is going to think of when they see or hear the term "toxic masculinity". Keep in mind that there are 3 types of people in this context: 1. People who know and understand the term as you described it. 2. People who "know" an "incorrect" (according to academia) definition of the term. 3. People who have never heard the term before, and draw their own definition based on where they saw/heard it and who it came from (often leads to #2). The vast majority of people will fall into #2 and #3. I'd guess more than 99%. I think that it's generally harmful and damaging for you to cite the original academic definition, because that just lends weight to the colloquial definition/understanding of the term as being valid. The term has been hijacked. If you care about the original definition, you need some new words. People aren't going to remember the difference between the "real" definition and the definition that most people use in common discourse. They'll just remember that "toxic masculinity is grounded in academia". BTW as a side-note, I have never heard anyone say "toxic femininity" out loud, and I very rarely see it used online. People who recognize some form of "toxic masculinity" would either have no idea what you meant by "toxic femininity", or they would believe that it was associated with misogyny.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "Your definition is not what the average person is going to think of when they see or hear the term "toxic masculinity"." I admitedly think I'm pretty average and I've only seen toxic masculinity describing behavior that's clearly harmfully based on false notions of man's role in society such as what is listed above. Due to this, I've never gained the conclusion that toxic masculinity is a term to describe men as toxic. Could you explain what the logic is that toxic masculinity is a descriptor that men are toxic, given the above?
  - xenihn 7y ago
    I don't think this conversation can proceed because I don't consider anyone who actively posts on HN as average.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
everdrive 7y ago
>false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness I believe this is a well-intended-but-misguided idea. Societal pressure for some trait can exist even when the trait is inherent. ie, there is societal pressure for friendship, fairness, and altruism. At least constrained to an in-group, (or previously, a kin-group) these traits are inherent human traits: they're not constructed by society. These inherent traits are enforced by society: we build rules, norms, and expectations around them, and we find ways to punish people who don't don't sufficiently uphold these values. By this definition there are societal constructs around altruism (eg, by what specific mechanisms is it upheld and expressed) which will vary by society, but the trait itself is near universal. I believe the same is true for male vulnerability: it's a universal trait, but because some people have managed to note and describe the local, societal mechanisms for expression of this trait, they have falsely concluded that the trait in its entirety is a social construction. If you're a 12 year old boy, and you skin your knee and cry like a child, the adults around you (men and women) will look at you with disgust. Society didn't teach them this: it's as automatic as scrunching your face when you see dog feces on the ground. It's inherently disgusting. People are not generally built to respect or like weak men. Teaching young men to be vulnerable and emotional sets them up for failure, and weakens their position.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  A 12 year old boy crying because he's injured doesn't strike me as inherently disgusting at all. 12 year olds are children that don't have the full capacity to make reasoned decisions around the society around them. If they force themselves not to cry it's because someone enforced the notion that they shouldn't respond to pain. "Teaching young men to be vulnerable and emotional sets them up for failure, and weakens their position." No, this is not what is being argued. What is being argued is that men are already vulnerable and emotional and then repressing this causes psychological damage, and teaching men to repress this also causes them psychological damage.
belorn 7y ago
You would think that Academia would use the original two terms: gender role for positive or neutral gender expectations, and gender stereotypes for negative gender expectations and labeling. What does Toxic femininity and Toxic masculinity contribute to meaningful communication that gender stereotypes does not? No one would take offense if I said there is a problematic gender stereotype in regard to the 'ideal' body shape for women. In comparison, the claim that bulimia is caused by toxic femininity sounds both confrontational and victim blaming. When choosing what terms to use does not "gender stereotype" sound much more inclusive, empathic and respectful than "toxic [X]"?

nesadi 7y ago

> Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness It seriously needs a name change, because the name implies that masculinity is toxic and that's how I've seen it interpreted.

blaser-waffle 7y ago
That's how a lot of people interpret it. That people take that away may be deliberate, if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M.
- krapp 7y ago
  >if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M. Toxic masculinity as a concept was invented by the mythopoeic men's movement in the 1980s, and later taken up in mainstream feminist critique. It was not invented by feminists, and certainly not invented by radical feminists.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

malvosenior 7y ago

I don’t think toxic femininity is used by academics: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity (That’s a horrible website but I know a lot of feminists use it as gospel). I’ve never heard it used with your definition. A quick google search also shows nothing. “Toxic masculinity” is a divisive term that needs to go away.

xenihn 7y ago

Your definition is not what the average person is going to think of when they see or hear the term "toxic masculinity". Keep in mind that there are 3 types of people in this context: 1. People who know and understand the term as you described it. 2. People who "know" an "incorrect" (according to academia) definition of the term. 3. People who have never heard the term before, and draw their own definition based on where they saw/heard it and who it came from (often leads to #2). The vast majority of people will fall into #2 and #3. I'd guess more than 99%. I think that it's generally harmful and damaging for you to cite the original academic definition, because that just lends weight to the colloquial definition/understanding of the term as being valid. The term has been hijacked. If you care about the original definition, you need some new words. People aren't going to remember the difference between the "real" definition and the definition that most people use in common discourse. They'll just remember that "toxic masculinity is grounded in academia". BTW as a side-note, I have never heard anyone say "toxic femininity" out loud, and I very rarely see it used online. People who recognize some form of "toxic masculinity" would either have no idea what you meant by "toxic femininity", or they would believe that it was associated with misogyny.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
"Your definition is not what the average person is going to think of when they see or hear the term "toxic masculinity"." I admitedly think I'm pretty average and I've only seen toxic masculinity describing behavior that's clearly harmfully based on false notions of man's role in society such as what is listed above. Due to this, I've never gained the conclusion that toxic masculinity is a term to describe men as toxic. Could you explain what the logic is that toxic masculinity is a descriptor that men are toxic, given the above?
- xenihn 7y ago
  I don't think this conversation can proceed because I don't consider anyone who actively posts on HN as average.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago

everdrive 7y ago

>false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness I believe this is a well-intended-but-misguided idea. Societal pressure for some trait can exist even when the trait is inherent. ie, there is societal pressure for friendship, fairness, and altruism. At least constrained to an in-group, (or previously, a kin-group) these traits are inherent human traits: they're not constructed by society. These inherent traits are enforced by society: we build rules, norms, and expectations around them, and we find ways to punish people who don't don't sufficiently uphold these values. By this definition there are societal constructs around altruism (eg, by what specific mechanisms is it upheld and expressed) which will vary by society, but the trait itself is near universal. I believe the same is true for male vulnerability: it's a universal trait, but because some people have managed to note and describe the local, societal mechanisms for expression of this trait, they have falsely concluded that the trait in its entirety is a social construction. If you're a 12 year old boy, and you skin your knee and cry like a child, the adults around you (men and women) will look at you with disgust. Society didn't teach them this: it's as automatic as scrunching your face when you see dog feces on the ground. It's inherently disgusting. People are not generally built to respect or like weak men. Teaching young men to be vulnerable and emotional sets them up for failure, and weakens their position.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
A 12 year old boy crying because he's injured doesn't strike me as inherently disgusting at all. 12 year olds are children that don't have the full capacity to make reasoned decisions around the society around them. If they force themselves not to cry it's because someone enforced the notion that they shouldn't respond to pain. "Teaching young men to be vulnerable and emotional sets them up for failure, and weakens their position." No, this is not what is being argued. What is being argued is that men are already vulnerable and emotional and then repressing this causes psychological damage, and teaching men to repress this also causes them psychological damage.

belorn 7y ago

You would think that Academia would use the original two terms: gender role for positive or neutral gender expectations, and gender stereotypes for negative gender expectations and labeling. What does Toxic femininity and Toxic masculinity contribute to meaningful communication that gender stereotypes does not? No one would take offense if I said there is a problematic gender stereotype in regard to the 'ideal' body shape for women. In comparison, the claim that bulimia is caused by toxic femininity sounds both confrontational and victim blaming. When choosing what terms to use does not "gender stereotype" sound much more inclusive, empathic and respectful than "toxic [X]"?