5 ms·

What I'd like to see is the opposite effect: A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its

What I'd like to see is the opposite effect: A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its average pitch is the one that that key usually has. This would have the strange consequence that nothing you played would sound dissonant and any piece you played would have the same affect as any other. It would probably be boring to listen to all the time, but interesting to hear it playing a piece which usually makes use of lots of dissonance.

jarfil 7y ago
Multiple pitches don't get averaged, it would sound like just a set of Cs. Could still be an interesting experiment, though.
- boomlinde 7y ago
  You may not perceive the average for such large intervals, but there are cases in music where you typically will, for example during vibrato.
yesenadam 7y ago
This is not quite that, but does have a piece that had a lot of chord motion converted to all C major: (Coltrane's) Giant Steps in C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 For jazz musicians it's very funny, in a horrifying kind of way, maybe listen to the 1959 original first if you don't know it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 And thank you! While getting the links I found this wonderful animation of a shortened version of the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc p.s. Woohoo! Coltrane on HN! :-)
- jackhack 7y ago
  Giant Steps _in C_? That's like a 6 color crayon coloring book version of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Thanks for posting this link. It's... musically obscene. To understand why shifting this piece to one key is such an abomination, it's important to know that Giant Steps normally has 26 chord changes in 16 bars. That's a furious pace, and it's changing keys, marching its way around the circle of fifths, as it goes. It's a simple concept, in a way, but devilishly difficult to execute at any tempo. The article below describes it as a M.C. Escher neverending staircase of music keys. It's evidence that Coltrane was the best. http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-john-coltranes-giant-steps-groundbreaking-radical.html http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-...
  - yesenadam 7y ago
    Sigh, I'd delete your comment if I could. I really wish you hadn't done that. Almost every sentence is cliché-ridden, crass and/or wrong, like the worst kind of journalism. Sorry.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
lloeki 7y ago
> This would have the strange consequence that nothing you played would sound dissonant Pentatonic scales have that property, mostly how even beginner guitarists can achieve picking solos (as long as you know what the root note is and keep rhythm) https://youtu.be/X9rYOhX77mA https://youtu.be/X9rYOhX77mA Same for some harmonicas.
jancsika 7y ago
> A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its average pitch is the one that that key usually has. Sounds like you're describing a vocoder or auto-harmonizer but I can't be sure. Suppose I play an F-sharp above middle C on your "averager" keyboard. What is heard? Is it only various C pitches? C pitches and a single F-sharp? Something else? Do the C pitches have harmonics or is it only the fundamental?
- OscarCunningham 7y ago
  Only various C pitches, and only the fundamental. I believe that this is also how most Shepard tones are made, except that when you play a different Shepard tone you vary the note (i.e. A, B, C, etc.) but keep the average pitch the same, whereas I want the opposite, where you keep the note the same but vary the average pitch.
  - jancsika 7y ago
    I get the concept, but the aural result is going to be quite boring because the timbral content is so limited. It can be achieved through simple additive synthesis with a handful of sine waves.
kd0amg 7y ago
No (nontrivial) additive combination of Cs is also an additive combination of Ds (or C#s or Bs or ...). You'd need something nonlinear like multiplicative combinations, effectively a C amplitude-modulated by another C, in order to get non-C results.
GuB-42 7y ago
What you are doing is playing a single note but with variations in timbre. I imagine the best you can get will sound like playing the horn. By that I mean a simple horn, without pistons nor slide. Because horns have a fixed length, they can only play one note, but skilled players can control harmonics to create a melody.
- n3k5 7y ago
  > variations in timbre Good insight, but these variations are correlated with variations in pitch. It's a single note in the sense that it's always a C; not necessarily always the same octave. > horns [...] can only play one note A piece in bugle scale doesn't sound like one note to an average listener, nor does playing such an instrument feel like staying on one note. I'd rather compare this to a didgeridoo than a horn. But if I concede that we don't need to adhere to lower grade music theory and that the performer will not use advanced techniques that can alter pitch without the use of a slide or valve, what argument could be made to support the "one note" claim? To clarify what I'm looking for, here's an example of such an argument (but I don't know how much, if at all, it applies to actual fixed-length horn instruments): If the exact frequencies of a note's overtones deviate from a pure harmonic series, one could make a distinction between pitch-shifting a note and varying the timbre. I.e. playing the next note above the instrument's fundamental pitch doesn't multiply the individual frequencies by a constant factor, but repeats the exact frequencies of the fundamental's overtones, thus reordering the frequency ratios between adjacent overtones.

jarfil 7y ago

Multiple pitches don't get averaged, it would sound like just a set of Cs. Could still be an interesting experiment, though.

boomlinde 7y ago
You may not perceive the average for such large intervals, but there are cases in music where you typically will, for example during vibrato.

yesenadam 7y ago

This is not quite that, but does have a piece that had a lot of chord motion converted to all C major: (Coltrane's) Giant Steps in C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYzYpb1MY0 For jazz musicians it's very funny, in a horrifying kind of way, maybe listen to the 1959 original first if you don't know it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0Lhysn_X8 And thank you! While getting the links I found this wonderful animation of a shortened version of the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6WTAHKYTc p.s. Woohoo! Coltrane on HN! :-)

jackhack 7y ago
Giant Steps _in C_? That's like a 6 color crayon coloring book version of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Thanks for posting this link. It's... musically obscene. To understand why shifting this piece to one key is such an abomination, it's important to know that Giant Steps normally has 26 chord changes in 16 bars. That's a furious pace, and it's changing keys, marching its way around the circle of fifths, as it goes. It's a simple concept, in a way, but devilishly difficult to execute at any tempo. The article below describes it as a M.C. Escher neverending staircase of music keys. It's evidence that Coltrane was the best. http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-john-coltranes-giant-steps-groundbreaking-radical.html http://www.openculture.com/2018/11/jazz-deconstructed-makes-...
- yesenadam 7y ago
  Sigh, I'd delete your comment if I could. I really wish you hadn't done that. Almost every sentence is cliché-ridden, crass and/or wrong, like the worst kind of journalism. Sorry.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

lloeki 7y ago

> This would have the strange consequence that nothing you played would sound dissonant Pentatonic scales have that property, mostly how even beginner guitarists can achieve picking solos (as long as you know what the root note is and keep rhythm) https://youtu.be/X9rYOhX77mA https://youtu.be/X9rYOhX77mA Same for some harmonicas.

jancsika 7y ago

> A keyboard where every note is generated using only combinations of Cs, but with the weightings chosen so that its average pitch is the one that that key usually has. Sounds like you're describing a vocoder or auto-harmonizer but I can't be sure. Suppose I play an F-sharp above middle C on your "averager" keyboard. What is heard? Is it only various C pitches? C pitches and a single F-sharp? Something else? Do the C pitches have harmonics or is it only the fundamental?

OscarCunningham 7y ago
Only various C pitches, and only the fundamental. I believe that this is also how most Shepard tones are made, except that when you play a different Shepard tone you vary the note (i.e. A, B, C, etc.) but keep the average pitch the same, whereas I want the opposite, where you keep the note the same but vary the average pitch.
- jancsika 7y ago
  I get the concept, but the aural result is going to be quite boring because the timbral content is so limited. It can be achieved through simple additive synthesis with a handful of sine waves.

kd0amg 7y ago

No (nontrivial) additive combination of Cs is also an additive combination of Ds (or C#s or Bs or ...). You'd need something nonlinear like multiplicative combinations, effectively a C amplitude-modulated by another C, in order to get non-C results.

GuB-42 7y ago

What you are doing is playing a single note but with variations in timbre. I imagine the best you can get will sound like playing the horn. By that I mean a simple horn, without pistons nor slide. Because horns have a fixed length, they can only play one note, but skilled players can control harmonics to create a melody.

n3k5 7y ago
> variations in timbre Good insight, but these variations are correlated with variations in pitch. It's a single note in the sense that it's always a C; not necessarily always the same octave. > horns [...] can only play one note A piece in bugle scale doesn't sound like one note to an average listener, nor does playing such an instrument feel like staying on one note. I'd rather compare this to a didgeridoo than a horn. But if I concede that we don't need to adhere to lower grade music theory and that the performer will not use advanced techniques that can alter pitch without the use of a slide or valve, what argument could be made to support the "one note" claim? To clarify what I'm looking for, here's an example of such an argument (but I don't know how much, if at all, it applies to actual fixed-length horn instruments): If the exact frequencies of a note's overtones deviate from a pure harmonic series, one could make a distinction between pitch-shifting a note and varying the timbre. I.e. playing the next note above the instrument's fundamental pitch doesn't multiply the individual frequencies by a constant factor, but repeats the exact frequencies of the fundamental's overtones, thus reordering the frequency ratios between adjacent overtones.