11 ms·

Michael Cicconetti

201 points by vezycash 7y ago

riffraff 7y ago
> Most people want to be good but for little obstacles or habits. We have to change the habits and remove the obstacles. That's our job. I love this quote. Notice it applies to an infinite amount of contexts.
dfischer 7y ago
Wow this is really amazing. The amount of effort here and critical thought is eye-opening and obviously compelling. Why is this an outlier trait? What makes these qualities hard to attain for the rest? Applying this methodology requires mostly... critical thinking? Care? What’s missing from the rest of judges and in many ways I’m sure can be applied to other fields of expertise.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Well there is the issue of "cruel and unusual" punishments being unconstitutional. But his seem too whimsical for that. I mean, the "pepper spray" was actually water.
  - vezycash 7y ago
    His success is in giving the accused a CHOICE. Here's jail, and here's something else with less jail time or non - Choose. Parents already do that to their kids, some schools to students. His innovation is in applying it to Law. Without choice, his method would be considered abuse of power.
  - daxorid 7y ago
    There is nothing more cruel than taking away the one resource a person cannot ever recover: time. Creative, or even corporal (e.g. 20 lashes), punishments are A. more effective, and B. less cruel, than prison time.
  - pdpi 7y ago
    A crucial point here is that his punishments are unusual but not cruel.
  - Yajirobe 7y ago
    These kind of 'sentences' are one step away from making this judge a star of a reality TV show. Punishments that deviate from the norm are not inherently bad, but there needs to be a line between actual sentences and what seem like a Monty Python sketch. Now, these offenses seem to be of mild nature, but who is to say that a world where equally ludicrous punishments for serious offenses is impossible?
- gnode 7y ago
  Although these punishments do not meet the high bar of "cruel and unusual punishment" as defined in the Furman v. Georgia decision, there is still the issue that judges are generally expected to act in an orthodox way. For punishment to be an effective and fair deterrent, it must be predictable. In much the same way as judges in common law courts follow precedent in interpreting law, they follow sentencing trends in determining sentences. Additionally, their decisions are subject to the judgement of higher courts (appellate courts; Supreme Court).
maury91 7y ago
> A man caught with a loaded gun was sent to a morgue to see corpses. To me looks like something that should be compulsory to have a gun, to know the consequences of using it. I believe fewer people will have the guts of pressing the trigger after seeing that.
- dlphn___xyz 7y ago
  the same should be done when you own a car
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Drivers education classes usually include such films as "Blood on the Highway" for just that reason.
- papln 7y ago
  That may just limit gun ownership to psycopaths who have zero empathy. Perhaps also everyone who chooses to not own a gun should be compelled to go to the morgue to see corpses of the victims of crimes, so they understand the evil of bystanding.
  - richk449 7y ago
    “Not owning a gun” equals ”bystanding”?
- crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
  A friend applied this sort of thinking to teaching them to not run in the road. She took the kids to look at roadkill and told them when they asked what it is, she said that's what happens when an animal is in the road and gets hit by a car. They were careful around the road without shouting or force. This is how every boundary violation could be taught. "Here's this thing. Here's what happened to it and here are the effects. Any questions?" (Herein: "the pattern") I'm now realizing this is maybe why we had the silly "This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?" campaign. Can we redo that campaign with every law & in a clear, literal,and real way children can understand? "Here's this/these living being/beings. Here's what it's like when they experience <violation>. Any questions? Call 800-555-1212 to register your question and ask the world on our livestream feed!" Yeah...and let's do it live, with the goal of converting the entire legal code and precedents into something people can actually use. We could also apply "the pattern" to universal life lessons, like solidarity > charity, coevolution > coexistence, mutualism > competition, and what the universal needs for thriving are.
jarfil 7y ago
> the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over 75%, the rate in Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10% Who knew that generic jail/prison punishments don't rehabilitate.
- kkleindev 7y ago
  Correlation, causation, something, something.
  - pdpi 7y ago
    Correlation doesn't imply causation, but the lack of correlation does definitely imply a lack of causation as well. So while it's not correct to say Cicconetti's approach lowers recidivism, or that jail time increases it, it's definitely correct to say that a punitive, jail-heavy approach to justice is not at all effective at rehabilitation.
    - Recursing 7y ago
      > a lack of correlation does definitely imply a lack of causation as well. That's not true as well, see Friedman's Thermostat for the extreme case Generally rehabilitation percentages for "alternative punishments" can be misleading because they tend to be applied to situations where they're more likely to succeed
      - pdpi 7y ago
        Ok, fair. My point is only valid insofar as the two variables are the only variables in the system. :) Thanks for bringing up Friedman's Thermostat, I wasn't aware of that thought experiment, and it's a really great example.
- dooglius 7y ago
  Or the national rate is far from uniform. Google tells me the Ohio State rate is 27.1 percent. I wonder what it's like in neighboring counties, or for people in the same area who get a different judge.
tronko 7y ago
There is a Spanish Judge (Emilio Calatayud) that does something similar[1][2]. I wonder if that is a kind of School of Lawn. [1] http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/2003179438 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/20... [2] https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-calatayud-reforming-judge.html https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-ca...
11235813213455 7y ago
I'm not really sensible to pets cruelty, because I differentiate pets, farm animals and wild animals. The latter kind matters the most obviously, and most people are guilty of killing wild life more or less directly, through their super consumerist life-style. But of course, that doesn't justify pets cruelty at all, as well as wild animals or insects cruelty, at least on the same level Every Sunday, I see at least one dead animal along the road, it was a fox 2 days ago, and a dozen bees, butterflies (yea I spend time looking at the road, when riding uphill) It's brutal, but I've spent 2 years on my own without paying for any food in a city, I sort of self-sentenced myself, no regret though, I like a simple life edit: if you disagree with this, have at least the courage to leave a good reason
- neom 7y ago
  The crux of the article is not cruelty to animals.
gumby 7y ago
America has cycled back and forth between retributory “justice” (punishment and “law enforcement officers”) and reformatory (penitentiaries and “peace officers”). Currently it’s in the most destructive of the first modes, and seems anchored there by being coupled to a private sector lobby and a propaganda of violence. But history has shown it could cycle back to more practical state, as exemplified by Judge Cicconetti. It doesn’t even require mushy idealism: a practical view of achieving the cheapest outcome shows that “hammer and tongs” doesn’t work.
- RubenSandwich 7y ago
  While it does seem like a cycle or that "history bends towards justice", let us remember that history will not bend on it's own. We are the agents of history. It will not passively "cycle back" or "bend itself", we must make actions towards reformatory justice. "But as I learned in the shadow of an empty steel plant more than two decades ago, while you can’t necessarily bend history to your will, you can do your part to see that, in the words of Dr. King, it “bends toward justice.” So I hope that you will stand up and do what you can to serve your community, shape our history and enrich both your own life and the lives of others across this country." - President Barack Obama - http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1886571,00.html http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1886571...
- papln 7y ago
  When was the cycle ever on the side of reformatory, at large? I've only seen it in local pockets of municipalities.
  - gumby 7y ago
    Late 19th century/early 20th century. It's why a number of the prison systems in the east coast are called "Department of Corrections", and the facilities themselves often referred to as "penitentiaries". The Boston municipal jail was shut down a couple of decades ago but when it was built about a century ago it was intended to be enlightened, providing the prisoners with light, fresh air, and exercise and allowing prisoners some internal liberty while being observed. By modern standards it wasn't a very nice place but at the time it was intentionally much better than the contemporary standard. That period was the most revolutionary of any in the US's history, with many things under experimentation. The "initiative" (i.e. referendum) system used in various western states dates from this period for the same reason, and which even the name demonstrates.
HarvyG 7y ago
The amount of effort here and critical thought is eye-opening
morley 7y ago
This story brings to mind a judge profiled in the third season of Serial, who liked to give unorthodox punishments that ended up shaming the defendants, were difficult to follow, and ended up trapping them in a cycle of parole and further punishments. I try not to be cynical, but my perception is that for every one of these judges who can think up positive punishments, there's at least one who's creativity ends up in a more sinister place. And regardless of a judge's talent in this regard, they have the position and the incentives to make their outcomes seem better than they are.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  This is the problem with unregulated power. If you do stuff like this judge does and have good judgement the outcome can be very positive. But it can also go horribly wrong if done by the wrong person with the wrong motivation. Same could be said for dictators. A well run dictatorship can probably be managed better than a democracy but it can also go very wrong if power gets into the wrong hands. That’s why in the end we are in the long run probably better off with a set of rules that make sure that things are predictable and the same for all people.
  - _carl_jung 7y ago
    > A well run dictatorship can probably be managed better than a democracy See the Five Good Emperors for examples of this[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva%E2%80%93Antonine_dynasty#Five_Good_Emperors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva%E2%80%93Antonine_dynasty...
    - arbitrage 7y ago
      Autocratic apologists? In my hacker news? From the article you linked: > The rulers commonly known as the "Five Good Emperors" were Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius.[4] The term was coined based on what the political philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli wrote in his book, The Discourses on Livy Machiavelli isn't really a great foundational source for modern government. Further: > The concept of "The Five Good Emperors" reflects the internal Roman point of view. [...] It is, however, not necessarily the point of view of provincials and of Rome's neighbors – particularly, of those targeted by one or more of these emperors in a war of conquest or in the suppression of a revolt." It very much depends on one's point of view, and if you happen to be the right type of citizen to fall on the right sight of autocratic rule. Don't defend tyranny.
carlob 7y ago
Reminds me a lot of the concept of contrapasso [0] in Dante's Divine Comedy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  No.
apo 7y ago
The first thing this brings to mind: > Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United... The article on Judge Cicconetti doesn't mention how many of his alternative punishments have been challenged on appeal (or if that's even an option). Let's say a judge wants to do something similar, but in a more malevolent way supported by the local community. What checks the power of this judge other than an appeal through the court system?
- mk89 7y ago
  The other option is the standard one: jail. So, I don't see anything negative in it.
- gnode 7y ago
  Case law has further defined "cruel and unusual punishment". The Supreme Court decision in Furman v. Georgia established that punishment must not: "by its severity be degrading to human dignity", "a severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion," "a severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society," or "a severe punishment that is patently unnecessary." severe punishment that is patently unnecessary. I think it would be difficult to argue that any of Michael Cicconetti's creative punishments are "severe". Conversely, they appear to be relatively lenient compared to orthodox punishments. Additionally, the punishments are arguably the opposite of arbitrary, being designed to match the specifics of the crimes.
- paggle 7y ago
  Courts have ruled that punishment must be both cruel AND unusual to qualify. These sentences are unusual but not cruel. Prison may be cruel but is not unusual.
  - rhcom2 7y ago
    I always wondered how the death penalty passed this test and I guess this is how. You can certainly say it's cruel but obviously not unusual.
ryanmarsh 7y ago
As odd and degrading as some of these punishments seem nothing is as inhumane and degrading as incarceration. If you haven’t been incarcerated, or volunteered time in a prison, you can’t possibly know how bad it is.
nimbius 7y ago
disclosure: I have been convicted of possession of marijuana in the past. I was given a 4 year sentence, commuted after just 7 months, due to overcrowding and a budget crisis. people like Cicconetti probably make for a 'feel good' story but seeing this makes me bitter. Judges are elected officials in the US, so the judge you get can be pretty arbitrary. They are allowed to be callous, and impose very harsh sentences, with little or no oversight. They can lie, and be backed entirely by the prosecution. If I had a judge that imposed 9 years in prison, or 3 weeks of standing in a field wearing a funny hat, I would immediately take prison. I dont know this judge and my appointed attorney for the state isnt exactly knocking it out of the park. Prison comes with formal educational options like finishing a GED or starting college. It has educated psychologists and psychiatrists to seriously help with some offenders major problems; its not just a clever guy in a robe. Finally, prison has work placement assistance and reintegration assistance if needed. My "feel good" punishment will still come with a criminal conviction. The difference is I will have foregone any semblance of formal restitution in the eyes of my friends, family, or employers.
- grzm 7y ago
  > "Judges are elected officials in the US" Depends on the jurisdiction.
- huhtenberg 7y ago
  You will prefer spending 9 years in prison instead of 3 weeks doing random silly alternative. Because of all the benefits that come with being in prison. Did I read this correctly? This makes no sense.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    Neither does a 4 year sentence for marijuana. Likely this was a parole violation and OP was forced to serve out the sentence he was previously paroled from.
    - zuuow 7y ago
      4 year sentence for weed, I assume it's a huge quantity
tossAfterUsing 7y ago
You know who else was an Eagle Scout?
- tossAfterUsing 7y ago
  ^^ Ross Ulbricht
WhompingWindows 7y ago
"A man who committed a traffic violation while shouting "pigs" at police officers was made to stand on a street corner with a 350-pound pig and a sign that said "This is not a police officer." "A nanny accused of hitting a boy with a belt was compelled to read articles on the consequences of child abuse, and then discuss them in the courtroom in front of the judge, the victim's mother, and spectators."
- ryanmonroe 7y ago
  Very odd that a judge, working on behalf of the United States legal system, would create a new punishment specifically in response to a citizen calling police officers "pigs", which is not illegal in the United States.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Meant as a derogatory slur, its ok? I can shout at the Mexican-Americans down at Big Box store now without repercussion? Disturbing the peace at the very least. Public nuisance.
    - ryanmonroe 7y ago
      https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/482/451.html https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/482/451.html
      - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        Largely unrelated? In that case, the bystander was trying to distract the officer. In the one above, it was the offender that was recalcitrant.
    - papln 7y ago
      Racial heritage is a protected class. The people who lord over me with a monopoly on legal violence had better not be.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
> Furthermore, where the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over 75%, the rate in Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10%. Wow. If this is true, it's impressive.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  If you click the reference, it's the judge himself making the 10% claim.
tcbawo 7y ago
It would be an interesting experiment to crowd-source these types of punishments/penance. Not in a binding sense, but as a way to lobby judges for sentences that might best rehabilitate the offenders.
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Would be interesting to just make a parallel 'moral-social' legal system, where the public could non-bindingly find people guilty of a crime against society and ask them to do something to make it right. A million people all sharing "Bob did a bad thing, and I'll shun him until he does X" would be a very strong incentive for action. I'd imagine employers would soon start looking up prospective candidates on this service before hiring.
mcguire 7y ago
Judge Roy Bean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace
aaron695 7y ago
"Three men soliciting sex were ordered to wear chicken suits holding signs that read "No Chicken Ranch in Painesville"." Not concerning to anyone? Publically feathering people for sexual deviancy? Do we think because of the choice he also keeps the alternative fair? We all know the alternative will be worse right? Because he has to push his punishment. Or perhaps he's a by the book judge?

201 points by vezycash 7y ago

> Most people want to be good but for little obstacles or habits. We have to change the habits and remove the obstacles. That's our job. I love this quote. Notice it applies to an infinite amount of contexts.

dfischer 7y ago

Wow this is really amazing. The amount of effort here and critical thought is eye-opening and obviously compelling. Why is this an outlier trait? What makes these qualities hard to attain for the rest? Applying this methodology requires mostly... critical thinking? Care? What’s missing from the rest of judges and in many ways I’m sure can be applied to other fields of expertise.

mirimir 7y ago
Well there is the issue of "cruel and unusual" punishments being unconstitutional. But his seem too whimsical for that. I mean, the "pepper spray" was actually water.
- vezycash 7y ago
  His success is in giving the accused a CHOICE. Here's jail, and here's something else with less jail time or non - Choose. Parents already do that to their kids, some schools to students. His innovation is in applying it to Law. Without choice, his method would be considered abuse of power.
- daxorid 7y ago
  There is nothing more cruel than taking away the one resource a person cannot ever recover: time. Creative, or even corporal (e.g. 20 lashes), punishments are A. more effective, and B. less cruel, than prison time.
- pdpi 7y ago
  A crucial point here is that his punishments are unusual but not cruel.
- Yajirobe 7y ago
  These kind of 'sentences' are one step away from making this judge a star of a reality TV show. Punishments that deviate from the norm are not inherently bad, but there needs to be a line between actual sentences and what seem like a Monty Python sketch. Now, these offenses seem to be of mild nature, but who is to say that a world where equally ludicrous punishments for serious offenses is impossible?
gnode 7y ago
Although these punishments do not meet the high bar of "cruel and unusual punishment" as defined in the Furman v. Georgia decision, there is still the issue that judges are generally expected to act in an orthodox way. For punishment to be an effective and fair deterrent, it must be predictable. In much the same way as judges in common law courts follow precedent in interpreting law, they follow sentencing trends in determining sentences. Additionally, their decisions are subject to the judgement of higher courts (appellate courts; Supreme Court).

maury91 7y ago

> A man caught with a loaded gun was sent to a morgue to see corpses. To me looks like something that should be compulsory to have a gun, to know the consequences of using it. I believe fewer people will have the guts of pressing the trigger after seeing that.

dlphn___xyz 7y ago
the same should be done when you own a car
- mcguire 7y ago
  Drivers education classes usually include such films as "Blood on the Highway" for just that reason.
papln 7y ago
That may just limit gun ownership to psycopaths who have zero empathy. Perhaps also everyone who chooses to not own a gun should be compelled to go to the morgue to see corpses of the victims of crimes, so they understand the evil of bystanding.
- richk449 7y ago
  “Not owning a gun” equals ”bystanding”?
crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
A friend applied this sort of thinking to teaching them to not run in the road. She took the kids to look at roadkill and told them when they asked what it is, she said that's what happens when an animal is in the road and gets hit by a car. They were careful around the road without shouting or force. This is how every boundary violation could be taught. "Here's this thing. Here's what happened to it and here are the effects. Any questions?" (Herein: "the pattern") I'm now realizing this is maybe why we had the silly "This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?" campaign. Can we redo that campaign with every law & in a clear, literal,and real way children can understand? "Here's this/these living being/beings. Here's what it's like when they experience <violation>. Any questions? Call 800-555-1212 to register your question and ask the world on our livestream feed!" Yeah...and let's do it live, with the goal of converting the entire legal code and precedents into something people can actually use. We could also apply "the pattern" to universal life lessons, like solidarity > charity, coevolution > coexistence, mutualism > competition, and what the universal needs for thriving are.

jarfil 7y ago

> the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over 75%, the rate in Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10% Who knew that generic jail/prison punishments don't rehabilitate.

kkleindev 7y ago
Correlation, causation, something, something.
- pdpi 7y ago
  Correlation doesn't imply causation, but the lack of correlation does definitely imply a lack of causation as well. So while it's not correct to say Cicconetti's approach lowers recidivism, or that jail time increases it, it's definitely correct to say that a punitive, jail-heavy approach to justice is not at all effective at rehabilitation.
  - Recursing 7y ago
    > a lack of correlation does definitely imply a lack of causation as well. That's not true as well, see Friedman's Thermostat for the extreme case Generally rehabilitation percentages for "alternative punishments" can be misleading because they tend to be applied to situations where they're more likely to succeed
    - pdpi 7y ago
      Ok, fair. My point is only valid insofar as the two variables are the only variables in the system. :) Thanks for bringing up Friedman's Thermostat, I wasn't aware of that thought experiment, and it's a really great example.
dooglius 7y ago
Or the national rate is far from uniform. Google tells me the Ohio State rate is 27.1 percent. I wonder what it's like in neighboring counties, or for people in the same area who get a different judge.

tronko 7y ago

There is a Spanish Judge (Emilio Calatayud) that does something similar[1][2]. I wonder if that is a kind of School of Lawn. [1] http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/2003179438 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/18/20... [2] https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-calatayud-reforming-judge.html https://inglesiesollosgrandes.blogspot.com/2012/05/emilio-ca...

11235813213455 7y ago

I'm not really sensible to pets cruelty, because I differentiate pets, farm animals and wild animals. The latter kind matters the most obviously, and most people are guilty of killing wild life more or less directly, through their super consumerist life-style. But of course, that doesn't justify pets cruelty at all, as well as wild animals or insects cruelty, at least on the same level Every Sunday, I see at least one dead animal along the road, it was a fox 2 days ago, and a dozen bees, butterflies (yea I spend time looking at the road, when riding uphill) It's brutal, but I've spent 2 years on my own without paying for any food in a city, I sort of self-sentenced myself, no regret though, I like a simple life edit: if you disagree with this, have at least the courage to leave a good reason

neom 7y ago
The crux of the article is not cruelty to animals.

gumby 7y ago

America has cycled back and forth between retributory “justice” (punishment and “law enforcement officers”) and reformatory (penitentiaries and “peace officers”). Currently it’s in the most destructive of the first modes, and seems anchored there by being coupled to a private sector lobby and a propaganda of violence. But history has shown it could cycle back to more practical state, as exemplified by Judge Cicconetti. It doesn’t even require mushy idealism: a practical view of achieving the cheapest outcome shows that “hammer and tongs” doesn’t work.

RubenSandwich 7y ago
While it does seem like a cycle or that "history bends towards justice", let us remember that history will not bend on it's own. We are the agents of history. It will not passively "cycle back" or "bend itself", we must make actions towards reformatory justice. "But as I learned in the shadow of an empty steel plant more than two decades ago, while you can’t necessarily bend history to your will, you can do your part to see that, in the words of Dr. King, it “bends toward justice.” So I hope that you will stand up and do what you can to serve your community, shape our history and enrich both your own life and the lives of others across this country." - President Barack Obama - http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1886571,00.html http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1886571...
papln 7y ago
When was the cycle ever on the side of reformatory, at large? I've only seen it in local pockets of municipalities.
- gumby 7y ago
  Late 19th century/early 20th century. It's why a number of the prison systems in the east coast are called "Department of Corrections", and the facilities themselves often referred to as "penitentiaries". The Boston municipal jail was shut down a couple of decades ago but when it was built about a century ago it was intended to be enlightened, providing the prisoners with light, fresh air, and exercise and allowing prisoners some internal liberty while being observed. By modern standards it wasn't a very nice place but at the time it was intentionally much better than the contemporary standard. That period was the most revolutionary of any in the US's history, with many things under experimentation. The "initiative" (i.e. referendum) system used in various western states dates from this period for the same reason, and which even the name demonstrates.

HarvyG 7y ago

The amount of effort here and critical thought is eye-opening

morley 7y ago

This story brings to mind a judge profiled in the third season of Serial, who liked to give unorthodox punishments that ended up shaming the defendants, were difficult to follow, and ended up trapping them in a cycle of parole and further punishments. I try not to be cynical, but my perception is that for every one of these judges who can think up positive punishments, there's at least one who's creativity ends up in a more sinister place. And regardless of a judge's talent in this regard, they have the position and the incentives to make their outcomes seem better than they are.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
This is the problem with unregulated power. If you do stuff like this judge does and have good judgement the outcome can be very positive. But it can also go horribly wrong if done by the wrong person with the wrong motivation. Same could be said for dictators. A well run dictatorship can probably be managed better than a democracy but it can also go very wrong if power gets into the wrong hands. That’s why in the end we are in the long run probably better off with a set of rules that make sure that things are predictable and the same for all people.
- _carl_jung 7y ago
  > A well run dictatorship can probably be managed better than a democracy See the Five Good Emperors for examples of this[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva%E2%80%93Antonine_dynasty#Five_Good_Emperors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva%E2%80%93Antonine_dynasty...
  - arbitrage 7y ago
    Autocratic apologists? In my hacker news? From the article you linked: > The rulers commonly known as the "Five Good Emperors" were Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius.[4] The term was coined based on what the political philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli wrote in his book, The Discourses on Livy Machiavelli isn't really a great foundational source for modern government. Further: > The concept of "The Five Good Emperors" reflects the internal Roman point of view. [...] It is, however, not necessarily the point of view of provincials and of Rome's neighbors – particularly, of those targeted by one or more of these emperors in a war of conquest or in the suppression of a revolt." It very much depends on one's point of view, and if you happen to be the right type of citizen to fall on the right sight of autocratic rule. Don't defend tyranny.

carlob 7y ago

Reminds me a lot of the concept of contrapasso [0] in Dante's Divine Comedy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso

eeZah7Ux 7y ago
No.

apo 7y ago

The first thing this brings to mind: > Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United... The article on Judge Cicconetti doesn't mention how many of his alternative punishments have been challenged on appeal (or if that's even an option). Let's say a judge wants to do something similar, but in a more malevolent way supported by the local community. What checks the power of this judge other than an appeal through the court system?

mk89 7y ago
The other option is the standard one: jail. So, I don't see anything negative in it.
gnode 7y ago
Case law has further defined "cruel and unusual punishment". The Supreme Court decision in Furman v. Georgia established that punishment must not: "by its severity be degrading to human dignity", "a severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion," "a severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society," or "a severe punishment that is patently unnecessary." severe punishment that is patently unnecessary. I think it would be difficult to argue that any of Michael Cicconetti's creative punishments are "severe". Conversely, they appear to be relatively lenient compared to orthodox punishments. Additionally, the punishments are arguably the opposite of arbitrary, being designed to match the specifics of the crimes.
paggle 7y ago
Courts have ruled that punishment must be both cruel AND unusual to qualify. These sentences are unusual but not cruel. Prison may be cruel but is not unusual.
- rhcom2 7y ago
  I always wondered how the death penalty passed this test and I guess this is how. You can certainly say it's cruel but obviously not unusual.

ryanmarsh 7y ago

As odd and degrading as some of these punishments seem nothing is as inhumane and degrading as incarceration. If you haven’t been incarcerated, or volunteered time in a prison, you can’t possibly know how bad it is.

nimbius 7y ago

disclosure: I have been convicted of possession of marijuana in the past. I was given a 4 year sentence, commuted after just 7 months, due to overcrowding and a budget crisis. people like Cicconetti probably make for a 'feel good' story but seeing this makes me bitter. Judges are elected officials in the US, so the judge you get can be pretty arbitrary. They are allowed to be callous, and impose very harsh sentences, with little or no oversight. They can lie, and be backed entirely by the prosecution. If I had a judge that imposed 9 years in prison, or 3 weeks of standing in a field wearing a funny hat, I would immediately take prison. I dont know this judge and my appointed attorney for the state isnt exactly knocking it out of the park. Prison comes with formal educational options like finishing a GED or starting college. It has educated psychologists and psychiatrists to seriously help with some offenders major problems; its not just a clever guy in a robe. Finally, prison has work placement assistance and reintegration assistance if needed. My "feel good" punishment will still come with a criminal conviction. The difference is I will have foregone any semblance of formal restitution in the eyes of my friends, family, or employers.

grzm 7y ago
> "Judges are elected officials in the US" Depends on the jurisdiction.
huhtenberg 7y ago
You will prefer spending 9 years in prison instead of 3 weeks doing random silly alternative. Because of all the benefits that come with being in prison. Did I read this correctly? This makes no sense.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  Neither does a 4 year sentence for marijuana. Likely this was a parole violation and OP was forced to serve out the sentence he was previously paroled from.
  - zuuow 7y ago
    4 year sentence for weed, I assume it's a huge quantity

tossAfterUsing 7y ago

You know who else was an Eagle Scout?

tossAfterUsing 7y ago
^^ Ross Ulbricht

WhompingWindows 7y ago

"A man who committed a traffic violation while shouting "pigs" at police officers was made to stand on a street corner with a 350-pound pig and a sign that said "This is not a police officer." "A nanny accused of hitting a boy with a belt was compelled to read articles on the consequences of child abuse, and then discuss them in the courtroom in front of the judge, the victim's mother, and spectators."

ryanmonroe 7y ago
Very odd that a judge, working on behalf of the United States legal system, would create a new punishment specifically in response to a citizen calling police officers "pigs", which is not illegal in the United States.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Meant as a derogatory slur, its ok? I can shout at the Mexican-Americans down at Big Box store now without repercussion? Disturbing the peace at the very least. Public nuisance.
  - ryanmonroe 7y ago
    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/482/451.html https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/482/451.html
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Largely unrelated? In that case, the bystander was trying to distract the officer. In the one above, it was the offender that was recalcitrant.
  - papln 7y ago
    Racial heritage is a protected class. The people who lord over me with a monopoly on legal violence had better not be.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

> Furthermore, where the national recidivism (repeat offender) rate is over 75%, the rate in Judge Cicconetti's court is just 10%. Wow. If this is true, it's impressive.

ceejayoz 7y ago
If you click the reference, it's the judge himself making the 10% claim.

tcbawo 7y ago

It would be an interesting experiment to crowd-source these types of punishments/penance. Not in a binding sense, but as a way to lobby judges for sentences that might best rehabilitate the offenders.

cwkoss 7y ago
Would be interesting to just make a parallel 'moral-social' legal system, where the public could non-bindingly find people guilty of a crime against society and ask them to do something to make it right. A million people all sharing "Bob did a bad thing, and I'll shun him until he does X" would be a very strong incentive for action. I'd imagine employers would soon start looking up prospective candidates on this service before hiring.

mcguire 7y ago

Judge Roy Bean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean#Justice_of_the_peace

aaron695 7y ago

"Three men soliciting sex were ordered to wear chicken suits holding signs that read "No Chicken Ranch in Painesville"." Not concerning to anyone? Publically feathering people for sexual deviancy? Do we think because of the choice he also keeps the alternative fair? We all know the alternative will be worse right? Because he has to push his punishment. Or perhaps he's a by the book judge?