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Yup. I had a serious anxiety condition since childhood. But my parents were so disgusted by my fear that they made me dissociate from it. I went to doctors and

Yup. I had a serious anxiety condition since childhood. But my parents were so disgusted by my fear that they made me dissociate from it. I went to doctors and said something is wrong, they asked, what? And I could not answer because I could no longer feel my fear. I went for 30 years without knowing my problem. Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously damaging a huge number of people.

lazyasciiart 7y ago
> Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously damaging a huge number of people. As I understand it, this is what “toxic masculinity” is supposed to mean.
- klipt 7y ago
  That just sounds like misandry. Society has an attitude problem with women in some respects too, but people just call it misogyny, not "toxic femininity" or whatever. Being consistent with terminology is sadly underrated.
  - justinjlynn 7y ago
    Indeed. If only "internalised misandry" and "misandry" were terms in common use, and the existence of which people didn't try to deny, we might able to see that sexism in society, no matter the source or target, is bad for, and has an impact on, everyone - and start addressing it honestly and without victim blaming.
  - habnds 7y ago
    in many ways isn't it two sides of the same coin?
  - mattlutze 7y ago
    Misandry is the state of being predisposed or prejudiced against men. Toxic masculinity is stereotypical or reductive modes of action or thinking perceived by men as expected or required, which can be harmful to other men or other people. They're not the same and it'd be not great to think that they are the same.
    - justinjlynn 7y ago
      True. Though misandry also includes the devaluing of certain ways a masculine identifying person might express that masculinity, just as misogyny also includes ways the devaluing of certain ways a feminine identifying person might express their femininity. Misandry is not simply the wholesale hatred of men and/or masculinity, just as misogyny is not simply the wholesale hatred of women and/or femininity. Toxic masculinity, as a term, encompasses behaviours which are driven by misogyny, misandry, and the, in masculine people, internalised misandry resulting in the perpetuation of mysogyny and misandrist attitudes. To see it as caused solely by internalised misandry is limiting. Such a view ignores the fact that toxic masculinity is a gestalt of behaviours driven by many different beliefs and attitudes - it ignores the fact that toxic masculinity is exhibited when mysogynistic or misandrisric behaviours are observed, and the observer is coerced by society to act in that manner thus perpetuating the cycle of sexism, internalised or not. If we want to address the syndrome we call toxic masculinity, we'll need to dissect it thoroughly. We'll need to name and target each component. As it is composed of behaviours resulting from all forms of sexism, we must address all those named forms of sexism in society from all applicable sources. Everyone in society contributes to toxic masculinity - but in different ways. Clearly a multifaceted approach is required - one in which we must all participate actively. Sexism is unacceptable and the mechanisms by which sexism perpetuates itself must be destroyed. Language is a very powerful weapon in that fight. We have a direct responsibility to use it effectively and with great precision. Let's carefully examine the words we use in this struggle to eliminate what we call toxic masculinity, because clearly there's some real confusion about what we're talking about here and some debate about who needs take action - because we all need to take action.
      - nesadi 7y ago
        All this talk about "toxic masculinity" tells me that there's something fundamentally wrong about the whole conversation. Because nobody wants to define what masculinity, healthy masculinity, is supposed to look like in all aspects of life and, most importantly, how it relates to sexuality in general and sexuality with women. I just get the sense that masculinity as a whole is supposed to be toxic.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    Toxic femininity is actually a utilized term in the same spheres as toxic masculinity was coined (ie. Academia). Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness, are justified in expressing their anger with violence, and that showing aggressive behavior instead of genuinely healthy human bonding is an acceptable and many substitute. It forces pressure on men to be unable to report when they’ve been sexually assaulted, when they’re anxious, in need of comfort, when they’re mentally ill, etc. This is how I’ve understood the concept and it seems to fit with the claim that “I am a man and my parents emotionally abused me in response to my deep anxiety disorder in my childhood to force me to avoid treatment for decades”. Toxic femininity is the same sort of societal expectations for women that are toxic. Women have more pressure to avoid being assertive even when their personalities are naturally more aggressive. That a mother is a mother first and a person second, such that everything she may do as a mother reflects on her worth as a human being. EDIT: Regarding 'toxic femininity' I've been corrected that this isn't widespread used in this way. It's probably just used this way in my own academic circle and I had made an incorrect assumption. Thanks HN.
    - nesadi 7y ago
      > Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness It seriously needs a name change, because the name implies that masculinity is toxic and that's how I've seen it interpreted.
      - blaser-waffle 7y ago
        That's how a lot of people interpret it. That people take that away may be deliberate, if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M.
        krapp 7y ago
        >if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M. Toxic masculinity as a concept was invented by the mythopoeic men's movement in the 1980s, and later taken up in mainstream feminist critique. It was not invented by feminists, and certainly not invented by radical feminists.
  - jmcqk6 7y ago
    >Being consistent with terminology is sadly underrated. These are extremely complicated topics, and I doubt if there are two people in the world that understand them exactly in the same way. I understand the desire to have a dependable way to talk about them, but it just doesn't exist. The only way to make progress with other people when talking about these issues is to listen and ask questions - not to depend on the fact that you know some dictionary definition of a word. And really, that's not limited to these topics, but is basically true of all communication. I know that there good explanations for saying that there is a difference between 'misandry' and 'toxic masculinity', and focusing on trying to force a certain terminology would completely miss the actual point of the discussion.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Being consistent with terminology is not a strong point of language in common usage. I think you'd struggle to get anyone to say that a man who believes he should never cry is expressing misandry.
    - klipt 7y ago
      If you think crying has any psychological benefits whatsoever, then shaming only men who access that benefit is absolutely misandry. If you're shaming yourself it's internalized misandry but that's still obviously a form of misandry.
- krapp 7y ago
  The only thing that toxic masculinity is supposed to mean is that there are aspects of traditional masculine norms which can manifest in harmful ways in modern society. For instance, men often have difficulty seeking help for mental or emotional health issues, because traditional masculine identity requires men to be stoic and independent of emotional connection - such needs are considered feminine, and a weakness when displayed in men. That would be an example of toxic masculinity. To continue from a now deleted reply - toxic masculinity is not internalized misandry. Misandry is a hatred of men. Toxic masculinity is not, nor does it derive from, a hatred of men. If one acknowledges that masculine identity and masculine culture exist, and that men have unique social, mental and emotional issues which derive in part from the expectations that society has of men, then one should be able to find the definition of toxic masculinity where these intersect, because the expectations that society has of men are defined, in large part, by men, themselves.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    No, that's absolutely wrong. Men and women have strongly defined expectations of themselves and of each other. Some are social and cultural. Some are genetic. Many are contradictory - which leads to impossible demands that can't be achieved by either gender. All of the current models for dealing with this are wrong. Neither liberal feminism and identity politics nor alt-right resentment and nostalgia for an imaginary lost "real" masculinity are healthy solutions to this problem. Essentially, both approaches are resentment-based rather than reality-based. Some of the resentments are justified, others are rather artificially exaggerated. But I don't think either approach is the last or best word.
    - krapp 7y ago
      What impossible to achieve demands are being made in the definition of toxic masculinity? For reference, I'm using the definition from Wikipedia[0], since disagreeing on terms is a common problem in discussions like this. Interestingly, Wikipedia says the term and concept were invented by the men's movement, not resentful feminists. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
Udo 7y ago
> Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously damaging a huge number of people. On average, society has pretty serious attitudes/biases regarding both sexes. Men are seen as innately value-less, disposable, dangerous, free, and powerful, all at the same time. If you're a man, society does not care whether you live or die. Women are seen as having massive inherent value, in need of protection, harmless, unfree, weak, and limited, also all at the same time. If you're a woman, every decision about your life is seen as significant, sometimes to the degree that they don't trust you to make those decisions yourself. All of these suck.

lazyasciiart 7y ago

> Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously damaging a huge number of people. As I understand it, this is what “toxic masculinity” is supposed to mean.

klipt 7y ago
That just sounds like misandry. Society has an attitude problem with women in some respects too, but people just call it misogyny, not "toxic femininity" or whatever. Being consistent with terminology is sadly underrated.
- justinjlynn 7y ago
  Indeed. If only "internalised misandry" and "misandry" were terms in common use, and the existence of which people didn't try to deny, we might able to see that sexism in society, no matter the source or target, is bad for, and has an impact on, everyone - and start addressing it honestly and without victim blaming.
- habnds 7y ago
  in many ways isn't it two sides of the same coin?
- mattlutze 7y ago
  Misandry is the state of being predisposed or prejudiced against men. Toxic masculinity is stereotypical or reductive modes of action or thinking perceived by men as expected or required, which can be harmful to other men or other people. They're not the same and it'd be not great to think that they are the same.
  - justinjlynn 7y ago
    True. Though misandry also includes the devaluing of certain ways a masculine identifying person might express that masculinity, just as misogyny also includes ways the devaluing of certain ways a feminine identifying person might express their femininity. Misandry is not simply the wholesale hatred of men and/or masculinity, just as misogyny is not simply the wholesale hatred of women and/or femininity. Toxic masculinity, as a term, encompasses behaviours which are driven by misogyny, misandry, and the, in masculine people, internalised misandry resulting in the perpetuation of mysogyny and misandrist attitudes. To see it as caused solely by internalised misandry is limiting. Such a view ignores the fact that toxic masculinity is a gestalt of behaviours driven by many different beliefs and attitudes - it ignores the fact that toxic masculinity is exhibited when mysogynistic or misandrisric behaviours are observed, and the observer is coerced by society to act in that manner thus perpetuating the cycle of sexism, internalised or not. If we want to address the syndrome we call toxic masculinity, we'll need to dissect it thoroughly. We'll need to name and target each component. As it is composed of behaviours resulting from all forms of sexism, we must address all those named forms of sexism in society from all applicable sources. Everyone in society contributes to toxic masculinity - but in different ways. Clearly a multifaceted approach is required - one in which we must all participate actively. Sexism is unacceptable and the mechanisms by which sexism perpetuates itself must be destroyed. Language is a very powerful weapon in that fight. We have a direct responsibility to use it effectively and with great precision. Let's carefully examine the words we use in this struggle to eliminate what we call toxic masculinity, because clearly there's some real confusion about what we're talking about here and some debate about who needs take action - because we all need to take action.
    - nesadi 7y ago
      All this talk about "toxic masculinity" tells me that there's something fundamentally wrong about the whole conversation. Because nobody wants to define what masculinity, healthy masculinity, is supposed to look like in all aspects of life and, most importantly, how it relates to sexuality in general and sexuality with women. I just get the sense that masculinity as a whole is supposed to be toxic.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  Toxic femininity is actually a utilized term in the same spheres as toxic masculinity was coined (ie. Academia). Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness, are justified in expressing their anger with violence, and that showing aggressive behavior instead of genuinely healthy human bonding is an acceptable and many substitute. It forces pressure on men to be unable to report when they’ve been sexually assaulted, when they’re anxious, in need of comfort, when they’re mentally ill, etc. This is how I’ve understood the concept and it seems to fit with the claim that “I am a man and my parents emotionally abused me in response to my deep anxiety disorder in my childhood to force me to avoid treatment for decades”. Toxic femininity is the same sort of societal expectations for women that are toxic. Women have more pressure to avoid being assertive even when their personalities are naturally more aggressive. That a mother is a mother first and a person second, such that everything she may do as a mother reflects on her worth as a human being. EDIT: Regarding 'toxic femininity' I've been corrected that this isn't widespread used in this way. It's probably just used this way in my own academic circle and I had made an incorrect assumption. Thanks HN.
  - nesadi 7y ago
    > Toxic masculinity is not against men but against a false societal pressure that men cannot show weakness It seriously needs a name change, because the name implies that masculinity is toxic and that's how I've seen it interpreted.
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      That's how a lot of people interpret it. That people take that away may be deliberate, if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M.
      - krapp 7y ago
        >if you look at the roots of where the idea comes from, e.g. Andrea Dwokrin and S.C.U.M. Toxic masculinity as a concept was invented by the mythopoeic men's movement in the 1980s, and later taken up in mainstream feminist critique. It was not invented by feminists, and certainly not invented by radical feminists.
- jmcqk6 7y ago
  >Being consistent with terminology is sadly underrated. These are extremely complicated topics, and I doubt if there are two people in the world that understand them exactly in the same way. I understand the desire to have a dependable way to talk about them, but it just doesn't exist. The only way to make progress with other people when talking about these issues is to listen and ask questions - not to depend on the fact that you know some dictionary definition of a word. And really, that's not limited to these topics, but is basically true of all communication. I know that there good explanations for saying that there is a difference between 'misandry' and 'toxic masculinity', and focusing on trying to force a certain terminology would completely miss the actual point of the discussion.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Being consistent with terminology is not a strong point of language in common usage. I think you'd struggle to get anyone to say that a man who believes he should never cry is expressing misandry.
  - klipt 7y ago
    If you think crying has any psychological benefits whatsoever, then shaming only men who access that benefit is absolutely misandry. If you're shaming yourself it's internalized misandry but that's still obviously a form of misandry.
krapp 7y ago
The only thing that toxic masculinity is supposed to mean is that there are aspects of traditional masculine norms which can manifest in harmful ways in modern society. For instance, men often have difficulty seeking help for mental or emotional health issues, because traditional masculine identity requires men to be stoic and independent of emotional connection - such needs are considered feminine, and a weakness when displayed in men. That would be an example of toxic masculinity. To continue from a now deleted reply - toxic masculinity is not internalized misandry. Misandry is a hatred of men. Toxic masculinity is not, nor does it derive from, a hatred of men. If one acknowledges that masculine identity and masculine culture exist, and that men have unique social, mental and emotional issues which derive in part from the expectations that society has of men, then one should be able to find the definition of toxic masculinity where these intersect, because the expectations that society has of men are defined, in large part, by men, themselves.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  No, that's absolutely wrong. Men and women have strongly defined expectations of themselves and of each other. Some are social and cultural. Some are genetic. Many are contradictory - which leads to impossible demands that can't be achieved by either gender. All of the current models for dealing with this are wrong. Neither liberal feminism and identity politics nor alt-right resentment and nostalgia for an imaginary lost "real" masculinity are healthy solutions to this problem. Essentially, both approaches are resentment-based rather than reality-based. Some of the resentments are justified, others are rather artificially exaggerated. But I don't think either approach is the last or best word.
  - krapp 7y ago
    What impossible to achieve demands are being made in the definition of toxic masculinity? For reference, I'm using the definition from Wikipedia[0], since disagreeing on terms is a common problem in discussions like this. Interestingly, Wikipedia says the term and concept were invented by the men's movement, not resentful feminists. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

Udo 7y ago

> Society has a serious attitude problem towards men and it is seriously damaging a huge number of people. On average, society has pretty serious attitudes/biases regarding both sexes. Men are seen as innately value-less, disposable, dangerous, free, and powerful, all at the same time. If you're a man, society does not care whether you live or die. Women are seen as having massive inherent value, in need of protection, harmless, unfree, weak, and limited, also all at the same time. If you're a woman, every decision about your life is seen as significant, sometimes to the degree that they don't trust you to make those decisions yourself. All of these suck.