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Paternity Leave Was Crucial After the Birth of My Child

167 points by rafaelc 7y ago

hawktheslayer 7y ago
I recently had twins and was very grateful my company recently added 6 weeks of paternity leave. Had this not been the case I would have been forced to use up my sick time which I will likely neee to use with my kids, and also would have been fairly worthless when I was at work.
- mysterydip 7y ago
  Congrats and hang in there. Mine are 8 months old, and if one gets sick you can bet the other will follow soon. People who have had twins assure me that it does get easier.
hbcondo714 7y ago
>> 16 weeks of paid paternity leave - which was the policy at Reddit I joined a company a couple months ago but prior to accepting, I asked the CEO what their paternity policy was because I disclosed we are expecting in December. He responded that they have a "wonderful" policy so I accepted. After starting, HR provided me with the employee handbook but there was no mention of maternity or paternity leave. I asked where it was and HR stated the company "does not have a maternity or paternity policy" and said my accrued PTO of 1-week by the time December hits should suffice. I just want to jump ship now. Update: I am in California
- untog 7y ago
  I don't know what state you're in, but both NY and CA have paid family leave laws on the books that entitle you to at least six weeks off. I don't know the full details, but you should seriously look into it. And don't write off getting a new job. I started a new job a few months before my child was born, I was told that if I quit my job within the first year then I would have to refund the company for the parental leave I was given so soon in my time with them. I happily accepted that condition.
  - hbcondo714 7y ago
    Thank you for the quick reply; good to know others have experienced this. I'm in CA & my wife will be submitting her PFL claim in the coming weeks so I'll be doing the research in parallel with her, probably starting here: https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm
    - x0x0 7y ago
      Just know the cap is pretty low -- like $1200-ish/week iirc. Echoing everyone else: a ceo who lies to get someone in the door? That person is going to fuck you (again) at the first available opportunity.
      - scruple 7y ago
        The cap is $1,232/week. I just ended my PFL.
- _jal 7y ago
  Completely aside from how truly awful that is, someone who would deceive you to get you in the door will fuck you again the minute it is in his interest to do so. Also, that seems like a very short-term strategy to be taking with hiring. He may not have a long-term strategy for the company. I would suggest you jump as soon as you're able.
- rahimnathwani 7y ago
  If you ask a question that can be easily answered with a specific/quantitative answer, usually the answerer knows you're looking for a specific answer. When someone answers with a generality, then beware because of: - motives - interpersonal differences in the mapping between words and numbers Let's say you're thinking about joining an expensive coding bootcamp. You ask about the chance of you getting an engineering job earning more than $100k after finishing. Even if they're not trying to mislead you, they might answer in a general sense in order not to be pinned down. So they tell you that you have a 'very good chance'. To you, 'very good chance' might mean 80%, because you're thinking about the high price of the programme. To them, 'very good chance' might mean 20%, because they're basing it on the excellent uplift over the 0% chance you have when entering the programme. And some people just like to avoid conflict and tell people what they want to hear :(
- cwkoss 7y ago
  Notify HR of your desired paternity period and tell them it was offered by the CEO. If they say anything but yes, forward their response to the CEO and ask about why HR is unaware of the "wonderful" paternity policy offered to you in the interview. Keep good records. If they fire you over this, talk to an employment lawyer.
untog 7y ago
There are many positive things about living in the US, but having a child here absolutely blew my mind. Not only is the act itself incredibly expensive (I'll spare everyone yet another health insurance rant...) but leave for both mother and father are woeful. Did you know there isn't even a federal requirement for maternity leave at all? In some states women get to claim disability for six weeks and that's it. Anyway, to get a little more on-topic: lots of us tech company employees are incredibly blessed when it comes to parental leave. Take. Every. Day. Not only is it practically a physical requirement (I don't care what you think, if you're heading into the office with a two week old baby at home you're not getting enough sleep to do anything productive) it's also an amazing opportunity to bond with your child. Your coworkers might moan or judge you. If they do, they're assholes. And who cares, you will move jobs in a few years anyway. You don't owe your employer anything. Take the leave.
- mysterydip 7y ago
  This goes doubly true for multiple births (having had a single then twins, it was more than twice the difficulty). You have enough to worry about with just keeping them alive and all the questions on early development. Work can wait.
- whiddershins 7y ago
  I feel like you are completely ignoring the FMLA. It mandates 12 weeks unpaid leave within the first year of childbirth.
  - untog 7y ago
    Unpaid is a huge qualifier. A lot of people simply cannot get by taking three months off with no pay.
    - mendelmaleh 7y ago
      Probably a lot of small businesses can't get by with paying people who aren't working.
j_m_b 7y ago
Not very feasible in our debt-driven, paycheck-to-paycheck country with gig workers and contractors scraping by. Many of the startups and companies that frequent hacker news not only rely on this kind of labor, but are actively creating apps to further "uberize" the workforce.
HorizonXP 7y ago
My son is turning one this month. My ability to work remotely for clients on a flexible schedule was absolutely crucial to our household's overall happiness and functionality. Truly, I am blessed. I wish everyone could be able to do the same. Our children and families would be much better off for it. I realize that it's impossible for everyone to have it, but we should at least aim for that. It would do so much for our society at-large.
- dabbledash 7y ago
  Personally, I find working from home with young children almost impossible. They are a huge distraction.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Yup! Even with a full time caretaker, I can’t get much done at home.
    - scruple 7y ago
      I go into my office and shut the door. I put my headphones on and put on some music. I work the morning. I prepare lunch for anyone who wants it, help with the kids (we recently had twins), and then head back down for the afternoon. I've set boundaries with the grandparents and my wife has also worked full-time remote in her life so she already gets it. We'll see if the boundaries stick with the kids when they're older, though they may be in daycare before it becomes a problem. I feel like the GP; truly, I feel blessed.
  - OrgNet 7y ago
    6h naps would be nice... but you are lucky if you get 2 hours out of them.
Waterluvian 7y ago
A (present or past colleague of mine) spent a few months living between the NICU and the office. In equal measures I was livid and heartbroken.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
Took off 4 months in July for paternity leave. I think it helps strengthen the organization because any gaps in information flow become noticeable. The success of complex projects should not depend on a single individual. I accept that less time at work may put me behind on the career track; and I expect that in the future, there will be a wage gap between parents and non-parents.
kareemm 7y ago
Maternity leave isn’t even required by US law, which is insane. I’m all for paternity leave (I’m a self-employed father of two so had to create my own). But let’s start with moms, or at least a parental bucket that either parent can draw from.
- FigBug 7y ago
  What do most American women do after having a kid, quit their job? You can't put a newbord in daycare can you?
  - koolba 7y ago
    Take unpaid leave for a short period of time and then daycare. Or leverage grandparents. Or stay at home.
  - untog 7y ago
    > You can't put a newbord in daycare can you? You can. Many daycares take babies from six weeks onwards. I cannot imagine how it must feel as a parent to do that at six weeks, but plenty do.
    - fastbeef 7y ago
      Jesus. We felt bad when our second kid started daycare at 18 months.
  - asark 7y ago
    Pick a job that offers actual maternal leave (teaching's probably the best—time it right and you get the Summer, too, plus your daily schedule will be close to that of your kid so you'll have lower daycare costs) or otherwise is either fairly tolerant of people disappearing for a while for kids or is easy to get back into after leaving—I don't have direct knowledge of this but I suspect family-friendliness and relative ease of relocation to follow a higher-earning spouse, say, is part of the appeal of all of teaching, nursing, and real estate agent..ry? ing? Or just take barely enough unpaid leave (or draw on other pools of paid leave, which are usually tiny anyway and may have been eaten into over various pregnancy-related issues and appointments already) to get back on their feet and head back in, leaving the baby with a cheap unlicensed daycare down the street (maybe fine, maybe, uh, not, but not like there are other options on a limited budget) or older relative or whoever :-/
cpr 7y ago
Odd that someone who doesn't need to work ever again would become a spokesman for this cause...
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Sometimes it's the gift of being removed from the struggle which allows one to advance it further. Ohanian is hardly the only voice for this policy. And many who are in similar positions to his actively oppose it (if rather more circumspectly).
mabbo 7y ago
I'm quite fond of Canada's system for parental leave[0]. The person giving birth gets 15 weeks off with 55% of their pay covered by their employment insurance (EI), and the couple get to share, however they decide to split it, either 40 weeks (at 55% pay) or 69 weeks (at 33% pay). No cost to the employer, but they have to ensure there's the same job waiting when the person gets back. It also covers adoptions. It probably is hard as an employer but every business is playing on the same field. It's not like "Well, I won't participate in that because my competition would have an advantage over me". It's not optional and it's illegal to fire someone over it. Every business with employees has to accept this will happen eventually. The only optional choice (which my employer does) is to cover the other 45% of the pay for a certain number of weeks. Interestingly, often you hear about people getting in at businesses because "they had a temp opening because of a mat-leave!". This works a lot like an internship, where the employer gets to test out a potential employee while not committing to them since the person on leave will be back on a specific date. Great way to get experience and networking for young people. My teammate, for example, left a few weeks ago when his child was born. He'll be back in January. Sucks for our team to work without him that long, but it's nice to know that if I decide to have kids that option will be there for me too. [0]https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-maternity-parental.html https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-maternity-p...
- cperciva 7y ago
  I'm quite fond of Canada's system for parental leave You mean the system where, in upwards of 90% of cases, women take 50 weeks of leave and men take 5 weeks? I wouldn't call that a great system, personally.
  - UnpossibleJim 7y ago
    I would. I think, personally investing in people makes for better people. A lot of times, that's done with time and not money. Money is a poor man's substitute for spending time with his children.
    - cperciva 7y ago
samstave 7y ago
/r/mensrights is pretty crucial to divorced fathers as well buddy...
option 7y ago
providing paternal leave equal to maternal leave is also important for closing women-men pay gap and eliminating biases against women.
nautilus12 7y ago
In tech you can take paternity leave but there is no gaurantee that they won't shift your projects off to other people and there won't be a place for you when you get back. This has happened to me twice for both my kids, even though I was in great standing before taking leave. One time it led directly to my firing completely out of my control. Now I'm scared to take leave even if they offer it. So you can "take" paternity leave in most tech companies, but you will pay for it with your job indirectly.
duxup 7y ago
I took a leave after the birth of my second child. The company I worked for was based out of the valley and had recently announced proudly that they offered paid leave. I was excited, until HR got back to me to tell me I didn't qualify because I didn't live in CA. They offered that I could take leave without pay. Even the companies who seem to embrace such policies, may not in all cases.
- billyhoffman 7y ago
  I don't usually call for something like this, but please please please, if you are an FTE, name and shame the company here. If this company wants to ride a wave of publicity and good will by telling the world they offer paid paternity leave, they should face the public scrutiny and blowback for such a disgracefully uneven application of said leave policy.
  - duxup 7y ago
    They have since been acquired and no longer exist.
- m_eiman 7y ago
  Volvo is (going to?) offer all employees worldwide the equivalent of Swedish benefits: 480 days, of which 90 are barely paid and the rest at 80% with a limit at around lower middle class income (many companies top up to 80% of actual pay). Of the better paid days, 90 are dedicated to each parent.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    How will they cover the cost? Lowering the salaries makes them not competitive, raising prices goes the same way, printing money does not work (they are not the Feds), what other options do they have?
    - m_eiman 7y ago
      I don’t know their reasoning, but it’s a pretty attractive deal for would-be parents which could make recruiting easier. And it’s probably partly brand building, which could allocate money from the advertising budget?
lr4444lr 7y ago
Alexis conflates two things here: caring for his gravely ill wife, which U.S. law protects with 12 weeks through FMLA (unpaid, admittedly), and paternity leave. I don't think that staying out for a long stretch is a wise idea barring some unusual postpartum circumstance, and I certainly didn't do it even given the option. Taking a little time off to readjust to the baby's habits, but getting back to working reduced hours and some remote work if possible as quickly as possible seems better. Being productive at work is part of mental health, and I found it restorative to be able to have those periods without moment to moment concern for the baby.
- untog 7y ago
  Couldn't disagree more. I took eight weeks off when my child was born and I couldn't be happier that I did. I fail to see why it isn't a "wise idea" and why returning to work quickly "seems better".
  - op00to 7y ago
    Pretending to be busy is very effective as long as you are there to keep the ruse alive. Once you’re not there and your work is how you’re judged, things fall apart quickly. That’s why it’s a bad idea for some people to take leave. :)
jason_slack 7y ago
I wish there was some sort of leave for when you take in foster children. I imagine though this could mean leave every few weeks to months to get a new child or children acclimated to life away from their parents (and otherwise the life they know). As a foster parent now I’ve been struggling for months to meet deadlines, keep up with the house and tend to the ever unknown needs of kids that have been taken away from their families. L
timwaagh 7y ago
The reason is regardless of how much 'leave' you have its easy to get fired. If you fear for your job then it's better not to take too much leave. And managers have reason to make sure people fear for their jobs. For another thing I don't think it is ethical. Specifically it is not fair towards people who do not have families. The loneliness we have to suffer is already punishment enough. We die earlier because we do not enjoy a happy life. Yes mothers should have a leave, because of simple necessity. But I don't think we should force people like me to compensate for fathers lack of will towards using their vacation days to care for their child. Edit: of course medical emergencies are a different matter. I don't want to give the impression I want people to continue working if a dependant requires their care.
- numakerg 7y ago
  Parental leave benefits you even if you don't have children. When you're old and infirm, you'll be lucky if society has enough young people to pay into social services and/or healthcare.
  - timwaagh 7y ago
    You convince yourself of that. With male parental leave in place there won't necessarily be less children. Guys like sex after all. But we can be sure there will be less doctors available at any given time, because some of them will be on an unnecessary leave. Besides, loners tend to die earlier anyways so we don't need so much Healthcare.
pimmen 7y ago
This still boggles my mind as a Swede, how this is not the norm. Children are people who need the right circumstances, being with both their parents at an early age should definitiely be one of them. On the flip side, as a single person, I can definitely see how alot of benefits you can claim as a healthy, working career person are tied to having a family with kids. Our taxes subsidize day care, kid sports clubs and many other expensive things that are exclusive to kids. And, as long as you announce it with enough warning, your employer has to grant and handle your paternal leave so a lot of people use it as a way to claim the best weeks for vacation leaving us single people puzzling how to get the most out of summer. Still, raising children is no cake walk and I would rather that parents have the support they need from the government than the whole situation affecting the children.
- bashwizard 7y ago
  Also as a Swede, I could never see myself raising kids in a country like the US. It's seems to be horrible in every day possible compared to here.
- fastbeef 7y ago
  Fellow Swede, child-haver and boggled-mind-haver. The way I see it it's an extremely cheap investment from the state's point of view - 350 kSEK or so in exchange for two years lower stress levels for 3 citizens (child + parents). It should pay of many times over over the course of the life of those people in lower mental health issues and abscence from the work force.
  - thefz 7y ago
    Then also pay for de-stressing people without kids too. Get sports leave, or a walk in the park leave and incentives for running shoes.
sneeze-slayer 7y ago
So what is the way forward with getting parental leave enacted in the US? Calling our senators? My senator hasn't been the to the largest city in my state in a long time, so that feels largely ineffective.
spraak 7y ago
At the startup (in the US) I work for I was lucky to have been able to take 12 weeks off at 100% PTO. I can't imagine working somewhere that didn't offer extended paid paternity leave.
metachris 7y ago
Just as a reference point how maternity leave works in many parts of Europe, using Austria as a reference: a mother can choose between 1, 2 and 3 years of maternity leave. You'll get the same amount of money over the whole time, and it's covered by the health insurance, so the company doesn't have any costs. It's typical that mothers start part-time work afterwards to ease back into work life. Fathers can also take paid paternity leave, usually you can split the leave with the mother however you want, and if you do you get a few months extra. It's also typical that the father gets 3 weeks paid time off when a baby is born, to care for the family. I feel this was invaluable for me and my family. I honestly find the US system inhumane, forcing mothers back into a job so soon, and a baby so young is just a tiny, vulnerable, little human. Too early to put them into daycare in my opinion, but I understand that many parents are forced to for financial reasons. The US healthcare really needs a big overhaul.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  You make it sound like there is no cost for anyone but "health insurance", but it is costing everyone including yourself: higher taxes, higher prices, lower salaries. The result is a higher cost of living. US can use the same system, factoring the cost of maternity leaves and the paternity leaves into the product prices or into reduced salaries. In the end, this is where money can be taken to cover.
  - lsc 7y ago
    So, if such things lead to more productive next-generation workers, it's possible that much like education, it's a net win, even if you don't have children yourself. As someone who plans on retiring (without children of my own) - yes, I consider saving money for my own retirement to be pretty important, but I also see having people around that I can buy stuff from in my retirement as pretty important, too. I'd really like to have the benefits of an advanced economy, so I think it's worth kicking in a bit to see to it that the next generation is cared for and educated. (Of course, I have no idea how important having mom and dad around the first few weeks is vs. having access to good schools or something else entirely. Not my field. But I am saying that it is in my interest to contribute towards having an advanced, educated workforce that is... working during the years while I'm retired.)
wickedwiesel 7y ago
It is really interesting to see how this is different from country to country. The Wikipedia overview [0] is fascinating! Of course, as as European, it is mind-boggling how little (none) paid leave parents get in the US. I also like how Spain is now giving fathers the same paternal leave as mothers maternal leave (16 weeks). I do think that parental leave is a really interesting instrument to enable parents to find a way for a more equal-opportunity take on careers. My wife and I deliberately split our time off 50/50 (7 months + 7 months, all paid leave in DE). Besides spending time with my daughter, which was (and continous to be) a mind-altering experience, this allowed both of our careers to progress similarly. I highly recommend it. Also there is this more graphical representation at the BBC [1]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country [1] - https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-leave-how-rich-countries-compare https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-leave...
thefz 7y ago
I live in a country in which women get a lot of time off after giving birth, men get some days and every family receives monthly cheques for one or two years after a baby is born. A new family can rake up a lot of free money either directly or with discounts, preferential treatment, bonuses, and support. I'm against any type of incentive for newborns, because it all comes from the state, which means public money, which means taxes. I don't want to pay for other people's two-year vacation leave in which they play happy family while their employer is missing an employee and getting compensation with public money. To me, if you can't or won't work, you must be replaced.
- CalRobert 7y ago
  Is your country in a place with low birthrates and propping up its population with immigration? I don't think your view is inconsistent, necessarily, but it comes down to different views about the role of the state, whether new generations are important, etc. Anyway, in some ways we should be doing what we can do reduce birthrates as much as possible before we destroy ourselves and our life support system, but on the other hand making it possible for people to engage in about the most basic function of being an animal without destroying their lives isn't all bad.
  - thefz 7y ago
    Low birthrates yes, just like any other European country, with the added pressure of a strong catholic presence. The state has been encouraging births as long as I remember. And while on one hand I can appreciate that everything is for the well being of newborns and a better society tomorrow, on the other all I notice are those who exploit this system to have years and years of paid leave and benefits. It's just as libertarian as it gets, but if you can't feed them, don't make them. And I don't want my tax money to go into a safety net for people who made very poor life decisions.
    - fastbeef 7y ago
      Will you be happier with the tax money in your pocket and your local economy in the pits due to population aging?
aristophenes 7y ago
One great side effect of paternal leave is that it removes a big reason to (consciously or unconsciously) discriminate against women when hiring, as anyone is almost equally likely to eventually take extended leave.
cynusx 7y ago
The sad part is that the US will only change their policy when from an demographic point of view they need to generate higher birth rates. For now, the US population is increasing without any stimulus. In Europe, aging populations have pushed governments to adopt more pro-parent policies.
collyw 7y ago
Maybe with overpopulation we should not be encouraging more children.
- billner 7y ago
  That's true globally but many countries have birth rates below replacement levels. A declining population can cause problems just as an increasing one can.
ykevinator 7y ago
A tech millionaire writing about a sports millionaire having a baby and then explaining how we should have more paid leave? Get over yourself.
zomg 7y ago
when my nephew was born my younger brother told me he was taking "male maternity leave" -- love that kid! ;)

167 points by rafaelc 7y ago

I recently had twins and was very grateful my company recently added 6 weeks of paternity leave. Had this not been the case I would have been forced to use up my sick time which I will likely neee to use with my kids, and also would have been fairly worthless when I was at work.

mysterydip 7y ago
Congrats and hang in there. Mine are 8 months old, and if one gets sick you can bet the other will follow soon. People who have had twins assure me that it does get easier.

hbcondo714 7y ago

>> 16 weeks of paid paternity leave - which was the policy at Reddit I joined a company a couple months ago but prior to accepting, I asked the CEO what their paternity policy was because I disclosed we are expecting in December. He responded that they have a "wonderful" policy so I accepted. After starting, HR provided me with the employee handbook but there was no mention of maternity or paternity leave. I asked where it was and HR stated the company "does not have a maternity or paternity policy" and said my accrued PTO of 1-week by the time December hits should suffice. I just want to jump ship now. Update: I am in California

untog 7y ago
I don't know what state you're in, but both NY and CA have paid family leave laws on the books that entitle you to at least six weeks off. I don't know the full details, but you should seriously look into it. And don't write off getting a new job. I started a new job a few months before my child was born, I was told that if I quit my job within the first year then I would have to refund the company for the parental leave I was given so soon in my time with them. I happily accepted that condition.
- hbcondo714 7y ago
  Thank you for the quick reply; good to know others have experienced this. I'm in CA & my wife will be submitting her PFL claim in the coming weeks so I'll be doing the research in parallel with her, probably starting here: https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm https://www.edd.ca.gov/Disability/PFL_Fathers.htm
  - x0x0 7y ago
    Just know the cap is pretty low -- like $1200-ish/week iirc. Echoing everyone else: a ceo who lies to get someone in the door? That person is going to fuck you (again) at the first available opportunity.
    - scruple 7y ago
      The cap is $1,232/week. I just ended my PFL.
_jal 7y ago
Completely aside from how truly awful that is, someone who would deceive you to get you in the door will fuck you again the minute it is in his interest to do so. Also, that seems like a very short-term strategy to be taking with hiring. He may not have a long-term strategy for the company. I would suggest you jump as soon as you're able.
rahimnathwani 7y ago
If you ask a question that can be easily answered with a specific/quantitative answer, usually the answerer knows you're looking for a specific answer. When someone answers with a generality, then beware because of: - motives - interpersonal differences in the mapping between words and numbers Let's say you're thinking about joining an expensive coding bootcamp. You ask about the chance of you getting an engineering job earning more than $100k after finishing. Even if they're not trying to mislead you, they might answer in a general sense in order not to be pinned down. So they tell you that you have a 'very good chance'. To you, 'very good chance' might mean 80%, because you're thinking about the high price of the programme. To them, 'very good chance' might mean 20%, because they're basing it on the excellent uplift over the 0% chance you have when entering the programme. And some people just like to avoid conflict and tell people what they want to hear :(
cwkoss 7y ago
Notify HR of your desired paternity period and tell them it was offered by the CEO. If they say anything but yes, forward their response to the CEO and ask about why HR is unaware of the "wonderful" paternity policy offered to you in the interview. Keep good records. If they fire you over this, talk to an employment lawyer.

untog 7y ago

There are many positive things about living in the US, but having a child here absolutely blew my mind. Not only is the act itself incredibly expensive (I'll spare everyone yet another health insurance rant...) but leave for both mother and father are woeful. Did you know there isn't even a federal requirement for maternity leave at all? In some states women get to claim disability for six weeks and that's it. Anyway, to get a little more on-topic: lots of us tech company employees are incredibly blessed when it comes to parental leave. Take. Every. Day. Not only is it practically a physical requirement (I don't care what you think, if you're heading into the office with a two week old baby at home you're not getting enough sleep to do anything productive) it's also an amazing opportunity to bond with your child. Your coworkers might moan or judge you. If they do, they're assholes. And who cares, you will move jobs in a few years anyway. You don't owe your employer anything. Take the leave.

mysterydip 7y ago
This goes doubly true for multiple births (having had a single then twins, it was more than twice the difficulty). You have enough to worry about with just keeping them alive and all the questions on early development. Work can wait.
whiddershins 7y ago
I feel like you are completely ignoring the FMLA. It mandates 12 weeks unpaid leave within the first year of childbirth.
- untog 7y ago
  Unpaid is a huge qualifier. A lot of people simply cannot get by taking three months off with no pay.
  - mendelmaleh 7y ago
    Probably a lot of small businesses can't get by with paying people who aren't working.

j_m_b 7y ago

Not very feasible in our debt-driven, paycheck-to-paycheck country with gig workers and contractors scraping by. Many of the startups and companies that frequent hacker news not only rely on this kind of labor, but are actively creating apps to further "uberize" the workforce.

HorizonXP 7y ago

My son is turning one this month. My ability to work remotely for clients on a flexible schedule was absolutely crucial to our household's overall happiness and functionality. Truly, I am blessed. I wish everyone could be able to do the same. Our children and families would be much better off for it. I realize that it's impossible for everyone to have it, but we should at least aim for that. It would do so much for our society at-large.

dabbledash 7y ago
Personally, I find working from home with young children almost impossible. They are a huge distraction.
- refurb 7y ago
  Yup! Even with a full time caretaker, I can’t get much done at home.
  - scruple 7y ago
    I go into my office and shut the door. I put my headphones on and put on some music. I work the morning. I prepare lunch for anyone who wants it, help with the kids (we recently had twins), and then head back down for the afternoon. I've set boundaries with the grandparents and my wife has also worked full-time remote in her life so she already gets it. We'll see if the boundaries stick with the kids when they're older, though they may be in daycare before it becomes a problem. I feel like the GP; truly, I feel blessed.
- OrgNet 7y ago
  6h naps would be nice... but you are lucky if you get 2 hours out of them.

Waterluvian 7y ago

A (present or past colleague of mine) spent a few months living between the NICU and the office. In equal measures I was livid and heartbroken.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

Took off 4 months in July for paternity leave. I think it helps strengthen the organization because any gaps in information flow become noticeable. The success of complex projects should not depend on a single individual. I accept that less time at work may put me behind on the career track; and I expect that in the future, there will be a wage gap between parents and non-parents.

kareemm 7y ago

Maternity leave isn’t even required by US law, which is insane. I’m all for paternity leave (I’m a self-employed father of two so had to create my own). But let’s start with moms, or at least a parental bucket that either parent can draw from.

FigBug 7y ago
What do most American women do after having a kid, quit their job? You can't put a newbord in daycare can you?
- koolba 7y ago
  Take unpaid leave for a short period of time and then daycare. Or leverage grandparents. Or stay at home.
- untog 7y ago
  > You can't put a newbord in daycare can you? You can. Many daycares take babies from six weeks onwards. I cannot imagine how it must feel as a parent to do that at six weeks, but plenty do.
  - fastbeef 7y ago
    Jesus. We felt bad when our second kid started daycare at 18 months.
- asark 7y ago
  Pick a job that offers actual maternal leave (teaching's probably the best—time it right and you get the Summer, too, plus your daily schedule will be close to that of your kid so you'll have lower daycare costs) or otherwise is either fairly tolerant of people disappearing for a while for kids or is easy to get back into after leaving—I don't have direct knowledge of this but I suspect family-friendliness and relative ease of relocation to follow a higher-earning spouse, say, is part of the appeal of all of teaching, nursing, and real estate agent..ry? ing? Or just take barely enough unpaid leave (or draw on other pools of paid leave, which are usually tiny anyway and may have been eaten into over various pregnancy-related issues and appointments already) to get back on their feet and head back in, leaving the baby with a cheap unlicensed daycare down the street (maybe fine, maybe, uh, not, but not like there are other options on a limited budget) or older relative or whoever :-/

cpr 7y ago

Odd that someone who doesn't need to work ever again would become a spokesman for this cause...

dredmorbius 7y ago
Sometimes it's the gift of being removed from the struggle which allows one to advance it further. Ohanian is hardly the only voice for this policy. And many who are in similar positions to his actively oppose it (if rather more circumspectly).

mabbo 7y ago

I'm quite fond of Canada's system for parental leave[0]. The person giving birth gets 15 weeks off with 55% of their pay covered by their employment insurance (EI), and the couple get to share, however they decide to split it, either 40 weeks (at 55% pay) or 69 weeks (at 33% pay). No cost to the employer, but they have to ensure there's the same job waiting when the person gets back. It also covers adoptions. It probably is hard as an employer but every business is playing on the same field. It's not like "Well, I won't participate in that because my competition would have an advantage over me". It's not optional and it's illegal to fire someone over it. Every business with employees has to accept this will happen eventually. The only optional choice (which my employer does) is to cover the other 45% of the pay for a certain number of weeks. Interestingly, often you hear about people getting in at businesses because "they had a temp opening because of a mat-leave!". This works a lot like an internship, where the employer gets to test out a potential employee while not committing to them since the person on leave will be back on a specific date. Great way to get experience and networking for young people. My teammate, for example, left a few weeks ago when his child was born. He'll be back in January. Sucks for our team to work without him that long, but it's nice to know that if I decide to have kids that option will be there for me too. [0]https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-maternity-parental.html https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-maternity-p...

cperciva 7y ago
I'm quite fond of Canada's system for parental leave You mean the system where, in upwards of 90% of cases, women take 50 weeks of leave and men take 5 weeks? I wouldn't call that a great system, personally.
- UnpossibleJim 7y ago
  I would. I think, personally investing in people makes for better people. A lot of times, that's done with time and not money. Money is a poor man's substitute for spending time with his children.
  - cperciva 7y ago

samstave 7y ago

/r/mensrights is pretty crucial to divorced fathers as well buddy...

option 7y ago

providing paternal leave equal to maternal leave is also important for closing women-men pay gap and eliminating biases against women.

nautilus12 7y ago

In tech you can take paternity leave but there is no gaurantee that they won't shift your projects off to other people and there won't be a place for you when you get back. This has happened to me twice for both my kids, even though I was in great standing before taking leave. One time it led directly to my firing completely out of my control. Now I'm scared to take leave even if they offer it. So you can "take" paternity leave in most tech companies, but you will pay for it with your job indirectly.

duxup 7y ago

I took a leave after the birth of my second child. The company I worked for was based out of the valley and had recently announced proudly that they offered paid leave. I was excited, until HR got back to me to tell me I didn't qualify because I didn't live in CA. They offered that I could take leave without pay. Even the companies who seem to embrace such policies, may not in all cases.

billyhoffman 7y ago
I don't usually call for something like this, but please please please, if you are an FTE, name and shame the company here. If this company wants to ride a wave of publicity and good will by telling the world they offer paid paternity leave, they should face the public scrutiny and blowback for such a disgracefully uneven application of said leave policy.
- duxup 7y ago
  They have since been acquired and no longer exist.
m_eiman 7y ago
Volvo is (going to?) offer all employees worldwide the equivalent of Swedish benefits: 480 days, of which 90 are barely paid and the rest at 80% with a limit at around lower middle class income (many companies top up to 80% of actual pay). Of the better paid days, 90 are dedicated to each parent.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  How will they cover the cost? Lowering the salaries makes them not competitive, raising prices goes the same way, printing money does not work (they are not the Feds), what other options do they have?
  - m_eiman 7y ago
    I don’t know their reasoning, but it’s a pretty attractive deal for would-be parents which could make recruiting easier. And it’s probably partly brand building, which could allocate money from the advertising budget?

lr4444lr 7y ago

Alexis conflates two things here: caring for his gravely ill wife, which U.S. law protects with 12 weeks through FMLA (unpaid, admittedly), and paternity leave. I don't think that staying out for a long stretch is a wise idea barring some unusual postpartum circumstance, and I certainly didn't do it even given the option. Taking a little time off to readjust to the baby's habits, but getting back to working reduced hours and some remote work if possible as quickly as possible seems better. Being productive at work is part of mental health, and I found it restorative to be able to have those periods without moment to moment concern for the baby.

untog 7y ago
Couldn't disagree more. I took eight weeks off when my child was born and I couldn't be happier that I did. I fail to see why it isn't a "wise idea" and why returning to work quickly "seems better".
- op00to 7y ago
  Pretending to be busy is very effective as long as you are there to keep the ruse alive. Once you’re not there and your work is how you’re judged, things fall apart quickly. That’s why it’s a bad idea for some people to take leave. :)

jason_slack 7y ago

I wish there was some sort of leave for when you take in foster children. I imagine though this could mean leave every few weeks to months to get a new child or children acclimated to life away from their parents (and otherwise the life they know). As a foster parent now I’ve been struggling for months to meet deadlines, keep up with the house and tend to the ever unknown needs of kids that have been taken away from their families. L

timwaagh 7y ago

The reason is regardless of how much 'leave' you have its easy to get fired. If you fear for your job then it's better not to take too much leave. And managers have reason to make sure people fear for their jobs. For another thing I don't think it is ethical. Specifically it is not fair towards people who do not have families. The loneliness we have to suffer is already punishment enough. We die earlier because we do not enjoy a happy life. Yes mothers should have a leave, because of simple necessity. But I don't think we should force people like me to compensate for fathers lack of will towards using their vacation days to care for their child. Edit: of course medical emergencies are a different matter. I don't want to give the impression I want people to continue working if a dependant requires their care.

numakerg 7y ago
Parental leave benefits you even if you don't have children. When you're old and infirm, you'll be lucky if society has enough young people to pay into social services and/or healthcare.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  You convince yourself of that. With male parental leave in place there won't necessarily be less children. Guys like sex after all. But we can be sure there will be less doctors available at any given time, because some of them will be on an unnecessary leave. Besides, loners tend to die earlier anyways so we don't need so much Healthcare.

pimmen 7y ago

This still boggles my mind as a Swede, how this is not the norm. Children are people who need the right circumstances, being with both their parents at an early age should definitiely be one of them. On the flip side, as a single person, I can definitely see how alot of benefits you can claim as a healthy, working career person are tied to having a family with kids. Our taxes subsidize day care, kid sports clubs and many other expensive things that are exclusive to kids. And, as long as you announce it with enough warning, your employer has to grant and handle your paternal leave so a lot of people use it as a way to claim the best weeks for vacation leaving us single people puzzling how to get the most out of summer. Still, raising children is no cake walk and I would rather that parents have the support they need from the government than the whole situation affecting the children.

bashwizard 7y ago
Also as a Swede, I could never see myself raising kids in a country like the US. It's seems to be horrible in every day possible compared to here.
fastbeef 7y ago
Fellow Swede, child-haver and boggled-mind-haver. The way I see it it's an extremely cheap investment from the state's point of view - 350 kSEK or so in exchange for two years lower stress levels for 3 citizens (child + parents). It should pay of many times over over the course of the life of those people in lower mental health issues and abscence from the work force.
- thefz 7y ago
  Then also pay for de-stressing people without kids too. Get sports leave, or a walk in the park leave and incentives for running shoes.

sneeze-slayer 7y ago

So what is the way forward with getting parental leave enacted in the US? Calling our senators? My senator hasn't been the to the largest city in my state in a long time, so that feels largely ineffective.

spraak 7y ago

At the startup (in the US) I work for I was lucky to have been able to take 12 weeks off at 100% PTO. I can't imagine working somewhere that didn't offer extended paid paternity leave.

metachris 7y ago

Just as a reference point how maternity leave works in many parts of Europe, using Austria as a reference: a mother can choose between 1, 2 and 3 years of maternity leave. You'll get the same amount of money over the whole time, and it's covered by the health insurance, so the company doesn't have any costs. It's typical that mothers start part-time work afterwards to ease back into work life. Fathers can also take paid paternity leave, usually you can split the leave with the mother however you want, and if you do you get a few months extra. It's also typical that the father gets 3 weeks paid time off when a baby is born, to care for the family. I feel this was invaluable for me and my family. I honestly find the US system inhumane, forcing mothers back into a job so soon, and a baby so young is just a tiny, vulnerable, little human. Too early to put them into daycare in my opinion, but I understand that many parents are forced to for financial reasons. The US healthcare really needs a big overhaul.

AdrianB1 7y ago
You make it sound like there is no cost for anyone but "health insurance", but it is costing everyone including yourself: higher taxes, higher prices, lower salaries. The result is a higher cost of living. US can use the same system, factoring the cost of maternity leaves and the paternity leaves into the product prices or into reduced salaries. In the end, this is where money can be taken to cover.
- lsc 7y ago
  So, if such things lead to more productive next-generation workers, it's possible that much like education, it's a net win, even if you don't have children yourself. As someone who plans on retiring (without children of my own) - yes, I consider saving money for my own retirement to be pretty important, but I also see having people around that I can buy stuff from in my retirement as pretty important, too. I'd really like to have the benefits of an advanced economy, so I think it's worth kicking in a bit to see to it that the next generation is cared for and educated. (Of course, I have no idea how important having mom and dad around the first few weeks is vs. having access to good schools or something else entirely. Not my field. But I am saying that it is in my interest to contribute towards having an advanced, educated workforce that is... working during the years while I'm retired.)

wickedwiesel 7y ago

It is really interesting to see how this is different from country to country. The Wikipedia overview [0] is fascinating! Of course, as as European, it is mind-boggling how little (none) paid leave parents get in the US. I also like how Spain is now giving fathers the same paternal leave as mothers maternal leave (16 weeks). I do think that parental leave is a really interesting instrument to enable parents to find a way for a more equal-opportunity take on careers. My wife and I deliberately split our time off 50/50 (7 months + 7 months, all paid leave in DE). Besides spending time with my daughter, which was (and continous to be) a mind-altering experience, this allowed both of our careers to progress similarly. I highly recommend it. Also there is this more graphical representation at the BBC [1]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#By_country [1] - https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-leave-how-rich-countries-compare https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190615-parental-leave...

thefz 7y ago

I live in a country in which women get a lot of time off after giving birth, men get some days and every family receives monthly cheques for one or two years after a baby is born. A new family can rake up a lot of free money either directly or with discounts, preferential treatment, bonuses, and support. I'm against any type of incentive for newborns, because it all comes from the state, which means public money, which means taxes. I don't want to pay for other people's two-year vacation leave in which they play happy family while their employer is missing an employee and getting compensation with public money. To me, if you can't or won't work, you must be replaced.

CalRobert 7y ago
Is your country in a place with low birthrates and propping up its population with immigration? I don't think your view is inconsistent, necessarily, but it comes down to different views about the role of the state, whether new generations are important, etc. Anyway, in some ways we should be doing what we can do reduce birthrates as much as possible before we destroy ourselves and our life support system, but on the other hand making it possible for people to engage in about the most basic function of being an animal without destroying their lives isn't all bad.
- thefz 7y ago
  Low birthrates yes, just like any other European country, with the added pressure of a strong catholic presence. The state has been encouraging births as long as I remember. And while on one hand I can appreciate that everything is for the well being of newborns and a better society tomorrow, on the other all I notice are those who exploit this system to have years and years of paid leave and benefits. It's just as libertarian as it gets, but if you can't feed them, don't make them. And I don't want my tax money to go into a safety net for people who made very poor life decisions.
  - fastbeef 7y ago
    Will you be happier with the tax money in your pocket and your local economy in the pits due to population aging?

aristophenes 7y ago

One great side effect of paternal leave is that it removes a big reason to (consciously or unconsciously) discriminate against women when hiring, as anyone is almost equally likely to eventually take extended leave.

cynusx 7y ago

The sad part is that the US will only change their policy when from an demographic point of view they need to generate higher birth rates. For now, the US population is increasing without any stimulus. In Europe, aging populations have pushed governments to adopt more pro-parent policies.

collyw 7y ago

Maybe with overpopulation we should not be encouraging more children.

billner 7y ago
That's true globally but many countries have birth rates below replacement levels. A declining population can cause problems just as an increasing one can.

ykevinator 7y ago

A tech millionaire writing about a sports millionaire having a baby and then explaining how we should have more paid leave? Get over yourself.

zomg 7y ago

when my nephew was born my younger brother told me he was taking "male maternity leave" -- love that kid! ;)