3 ms·

Trains don’t work in suburbs not because of space limitations - there just aren’t enough paying customers per mile of track to make the economics work.

Decade 7y ago
There are not enough taxpaying residents to make roads work, either. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/4/30/my-city-has-massive-infrastructure-liabilities-so-do-99-of-the-cities-in-america https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/4/30/my-city-has-ma...
- squeaky-clean 7y ago
  You NEED roads though. Even if you can reach 100% of the city through walking and public transportation, what do you do when you move? Take a train trip for your sofa, and another for your dining room table, and so on? How do local stores and restaurants get their goods delivered? How do you get packages larger than an envelope delivered to your home? How do emergency services and fire rescue reach your home? Do towns exist with public transportation but no roads?
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Heh, yeah. The 'apartment living on a bike' hypothesis is really at odds with itself in this sense, I feel. If you own and live in a place long term then you can slowly bring materials to it, build up furniture, etc, it all works and makes sense. But really this all seems to be based on hyper-specialism. The moving company is the only one allowed to use the roads. You've no space for tools or materials, so no DIY, get the joiners in. And so on and so forth. Personally I find that really depressing. You may as well just plug yourself into the wall and turn on VR.
  - Zxian 7y ago
    You need _some_ roads, but not to the extent of your typical suburban sprawl. Where I live (Vancouver, Canada), there are sufficient roads for most travel, but the city also has relatively high quality public transit and decent bike routes. I don't think GP meant that a city should have no roads, but rather that transportation infrastructure is almost always going to be an expenditure for a city. America has simply chosen to prioritize cars over other transportation options. Higher density minimizes the need for cars.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    This is a typical neighborhood road in Berlin https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.23h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7OkWeg3tHxGENApPU9Gg6g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D7OkWeg3tHxGENApPU9Gg6g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D231.62077%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.... This is a road in central Tokyo https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260.8h,68.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqS7kwYhSeNLhPmViFiR83g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqS7kwYhSeNLhPmViFiR83g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D176.78474%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260... This is a random road in San Mateo https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,39.12h,80.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIxelJi-OgHbvaV3OM7P4yw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DIxelJi-OgHbvaV3OM7P4yw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D110.32812%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,3... You need roads, but you don't need roads that as wide as those in American urban sprawl
    - benplumley 7y ago
      I feel almost agoraphobic when I look at pictures of suburban USA. I think it's a combination of flat landscape, low buildings, wide roads, no mature trees (your example notwithstanding) and no real features on the horizon. Off topic, what's going on in the Berlin example? The whole left side of the photo looks like it's been redacted, are the homeowners requesting their houses be removed?
      - adrianN 7y ago
        German privacy laws \o/
      - taejo 7y ago
        When the street view cars came to Germany, so many people requested redactions that the whole project got cancelled. Only the biggest cities have coverage and it hasn't been updated since 2011.
ggm 7y ago
Trains work fine in the suburbs, when the burbs are built around the belief trains either will, or do exist.

Decade 7y ago

There are not enough taxpaying residents to make roads work, either. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/4/30/my-city-has-massive-infrastructure-liabilities-so-do-99-of-the-cities-in-america https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/4/30/my-city-has-ma...

squeaky-clean 7y ago
You NEED roads though. Even if you can reach 100% of the city through walking and public transportation, what do you do when you move? Take a train trip for your sofa, and another for your dining room table, and so on? How do local stores and restaurants get their goods delivered? How do you get packages larger than an envelope delivered to your home? How do emergency services and fire rescue reach your home? Do towns exist with public transportation but no roads?
- esotericn 7y ago
  Heh, yeah. The 'apartment living on a bike' hypothesis is really at odds with itself in this sense, I feel. If you own and live in a place long term then you can slowly bring materials to it, build up furniture, etc, it all works and makes sense. But really this all seems to be based on hyper-specialism. The moving company is the only one allowed to use the roads. You've no space for tools or materials, so no DIY, get the joiners in. And so on and so forth. Personally I find that really depressing. You may as well just plug yourself into the wall and turn on VR.
- Zxian 7y ago
  You need _some_ roads, but not to the extent of your typical suburban sprawl. Where I live (Vancouver, Canada), there are sufficient roads for most travel, but the city also has relatively high quality public transit and decent bike routes. I don't think GP meant that a city should have no roads, but rather that transportation infrastructure is almost always going to be an expenditure for a city. America has simply chosen to prioritize cars over other transportation options. Higher density minimizes the need for cars.
- adrianN 7y ago
  This is a typical neighborhood road in Berlin https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.23h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7OkWeg3tHxGENApPU9Gg6g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D7OkWeg3tHxGENApPU9Gg6g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D231.62077%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.de/maps/@52.4463121,13.309308,3a,75y,244.... This is a road in central Tokyo https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260.8h,68.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqS7kwYhSeNLhPmViFiR83g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqS7kwYhSeNLhPmViFiR83g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D176.78474%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.de/maps/@35.705447,139.7784828,3a,75y,260... This is a random road in San Mateo https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,39.12h,80.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIxelJi-OgHbvaV3OM7P4yw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DIxelJi-OgHbvaV3OM7P4yw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D110.32812%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.de/maps/@37.5600243,-122.3067183,3a,75y,3... You need roads, but you don't need roads that as wide as those in American urban sprawl
  - benplumley 7y ago
    I feel almost agoraphobic when I look at pictures of suburban USA. I think it's a combination of flat landscape, low buildings, wide roads, no mature trees (your example notwithstanding) and no real features on the horizon. Off topic, what's going on in the Berlin example? The whole left side of the photo looks like it's been redacted, are the homeowners requesting their houses be removed?
    - adrianN 7y ago
      German privacy laws \o/
    - taejo 7y ago
      When the street view cars came to Germany, so many people requested redactions that the whole project got cancelled. Only the biggest cities have coverage and it hasn't been updated since 2011.

ggm 7y ago

Trains work fine in the suburbs, when the burbs are built around the belief trains either will, or do exist.