4 ms·
I suspect that we're only talking to ourselves at this point, so perhaps it's not worth a lot more time on this conversation. But a few notes: Regarding the in
by Steuard 7y ago
I suspect that we're only talking to ourselves at this point, so perhaps it's not worth a lot more time on this conversation. But a few notes:
Regarding the infinite plate limit: Locally, it is absolutely true that as you increase the size of the plates (relative to the distance between them) the fields must approach the result for an infinite plate. But as soon as you want to consider global questions like the behavior of the potential at infinity, there is a true qualitative difference between a large-but-finite capacitor and an infinite one. Any finite charge distribution will result in a potential of zero at infinity (or rather, will allow you to consistently make that choice), but an infinite charge distribution will not in general allow that. For the case of an infinite parallel plate capacitor, if you set the potential to zero out to infinity on one side, it will be non-zero (and constant) out to infinity on the other. One upshot of this is that it's misleading at best to use the infinite plate approximation for any sort of scattering analysis (like what we're discussing here).
Regarding multipole expansions: I love multipole analysis, it's a beautiful way to study charge distributions. That said, I think it's massive overkill to actually use it in this case, since at least for circular plates along the axis that process is far more complicated than just using the exact fields themselves.
Regarding momentum transfer: You've claimed that "It is the functional form of the potential out to infinity which determines how much momentum the ions transfer back to the device". I agree that if you want to know the rate of momentum transfer at any given point, you need to know the exact functional form of the potential (and/or the field). But if we're only interested in the total momentum transferred in the interaction, we don't need to know the details of where and when the momentum transfer happened: all we need to know is the net result. So in particular, if your ion starts far in front of the device with (relative) velocity v0 in the -x direction, and we can show from energy conservation that it ends far behind the device with the same velocity v0 in the -x direction, that's sufficient to prove that the ion has experienced no net change in velocity and thus that no net momentum transfer has occurred (even though there may have been substantial transfers along the way).
With that in mind, if we specialize to the simple case of an ion moving along the axis of symmetry of two circular plates, we can find exactly this result explicitly from an energy calculation. So to heck with it, let's just do this. (And apologies if this is repetition, but I don't think I was able to get your link in that other thread to work, or perhaps I tried to follow the wrong one.) Along the axis of a uniformly charged circular disk of radius R,
E_x(disk) = K * (1-|x|/sqrt(x^2+R^2)) * sign(x),
where K is a constant (K=sigma/(2 epsilon_0) for surface charge density sigma). Assembling two of these with opposite charges a distance D apart (with the + plate at x=0 and the - plate at x=-D) gives for x>0:
E_x(x>0) = K * [(x+D)/sqrt((x+D)^2 + R^2) - x/sqrt(x^2 + R^2)]
This has the properties you'd expect: for example, it approaches D/R->0 as R approaches infinity, matching the infinite plate limit. (The expression's clearly different between the plates.) You can integrate this (or rather, its negative) to get the electric potential:
phi(x>=0) = K * [sqrt(x^2 + R^2) - sqrt((x+D)^2 + R^2) + D]
The constant +D was chosen to maintain the convention phi=0 at infinity. But then we find that the potential at x=0 is
phi(x=0) = K * [R - sqrt(D^2 + R^2) + D],
or approximately K * D in the limit of large R (and this actually decreases as R gets smaller). [This is consistent: by symmetry, phi=0 at the midpoint between the plates (x=-D/2), and in the large R limit the electric field inside is a constant sigma/epsilon_0 = 2K, so 2K * D/2 = K * D.] No matter how large you make the plates, the total change in the incoming ion's energy and thus the total effect of the exterior field on the ion's speed will not approach zero, even though the magnitude of the field at any given point does approach zero as R grows (as it must, to match the infinite plate limit). And no matter how large you make the plates, the total effect of the field on the speed of an ion that moves from infinity to the midpoint of the plates will be zero (and similarly on the negative/outgoing side). You're welcome to solve equations of motion to find the exact functional form of x(t) for this particle, but that's a lot of work, and energy conservation guarantees that there will be no net change in speed.
Finally, regarding plasma screening: My comment about positive ions being strongly repelled outside of the positive plate was perhaps unclear, and certainly I'd welcome corrections if I'm misunderstanding screening somehow. I was speaking specifically of ions that came closer to the positive plate than the length scale over which the screening brings the outside field to zero. The screening charges can't change the electric potential at the position of the plate itself (unless you allow them to discharge the whole thing), so rather than falling off to zero very slowly over a long distance as in the unscreened case (giving rise to a small but wide electric field as the gradient), the potential must fall to zero very rapidly over the short screening distance (giving rise to a large but short-ranged electric field). Either way, the height of the potential energy barrier at the plate (relative to infinity) can't change. So again, in the screened case I would think that incoming positive ions would feel essentially zero field for most of their approach but would then feel a very strong repulsion in the narrow region immediately before the plate.
- T-A 7y ago> Regarding multipole expansions: I love multipole analysis, it's a beautiful way to study charge distributions. That said, I think it's massive overkill to actually use it in this case, since at least for circular plates along the axis that process is far more complicated than just using the exact fields themselves. Yes, yes, in this case the multiple expansion is a conceptual tool which can be used to understand why things work as they do (and it originally entered the discussion with ballenarosada because he or she was trying to use just the dipole term to model a plate capacitor). The exact solution can be looked up e.g. in the pedagogical presentation which I linked to in that thread. I see now that the original link no longer seems to work, but this one does: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228807623_Electric_field_outside_a_parallel_plate_capacitor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228807623_Electric_... Cutting to the chase: you are still not accounting for plasma screening. As the ion leaves the plate, it's surrounded by a cloud of oppositely charged ions which reduce its effective charge, i.e. its coupling to the plate's electric field. The further away it moves, the smaller its charge seems to be. To account for that, include a Debye factor: the coupling between electric field E and ion with naked charge q goes from E * q to E * q * exp(-r/l_D) where r is distance from the plate and l_D is the Debye length [1]. As you say, integrating the equations of motion for the correct E is a lot of work, but we don't need to: it's quite enough to agree that the field is falling by some power of distance from the plate. The exponential then wins in very short order. At a separation of just ten Debye lengths, the ion's effective charge has been reduced by a factor 0.000045; at a separation of one hundred Debye lengths, the factor is 3.72e-44, for all practical purposes zero. When the Debye length is short compared to the field gradient (i.e. to the size of your capacitor) you can just let E be constant. It's then trivial to integrate the work done by the electric field as the ion moves out; even if you let the ion run all the way to infinity, the work done is just E_0 * q * l_D where E_0 is the electric field at the plate. Compare with the work done inside the capacitor (where E is actually constant) and you see that even using this maximally pessimistic approximation of constant external field, you've only shaved off one Debye length's worth of the capacitor's plate separation from the total work done on the ion. In low Earth orbit that's one to a few millimeters [1]. Regarding this, > rather than falling off to zero very slowly over a long distance as in the unscreened case (giving rise to a small but wide electric field as the gradient), the potential must fall to zero very rapidly over the short screening distance (giving rise to a large but short-ranged electric field) I think the easy way to think about it is to view the ion as being screened. The plates will of course also attract oppositely charged ions, but they are connected to a generator (solar panels, nuclear reactor...) which is constantly pumping electrons accruing around the anode to the cathode, where they recombine with protons accruing around the cathode. As long as that's running, you have a steady state situation where the net charge of each plate is somewhat reduced relative to the vacuum case, but the field can still be approximated by the vacuum solution (using the reduced net charge). For the ion, this is clearly not true; it is not connected to a generator and will just behave like any other ion in the plasma. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye_length https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye_length