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Roundabouts seem to bypass American NIH and get straight to our native anti-intellectualism. Probably the most common comment I hear from people encountering th

Roundabouts seem to bypass American NIH and get straight to our native anti-intellectualism. Probably the most common comment I hear from people encountering them for the first time is that they are too hard to figure out. To be fair, signage can be very poor, but still.

LanceH 7y ago
We just got one in my area. It's obviously the first time many people have seen one. And as you said, they are too hard for some people to figure out on the first time. I've seen people stopping in the traffic circle in places that don't even make sense to stop, under any circumstances. There is too much signage, if anything, and the left lane sign indicates it is for a left turn (not a sickle shaped, 270 degree left turn). Thankfully I haven't seen anyone making a left. One problem with traffic circles is they require a wider carve out in what would be the corners of a 4-way stop. This involves eminent domain or prior government ownership; either making retrofitting difficult.
- kiliantics 7y ago
  Compared with most European countries, the bar for being granted a driver's licence in the US is extremely low. It makes sense that it would be this way, given how difficult life is without a car in most places here, but I am often shocked at the standard of driving. In particular, the level of disregard for users of the road who are not in cars. But then, that also makes sense, since many people do not have much experience with using the road without a car.
  - bin0 7y ago
    Not exactly. In America, distances are too long for bikes to effectively cover in most places that are not the east and west coasts. However, this also means that when inconsiderate bicyclists max out at 20-25mph on a 55mph road, they slow every one else down too (even those in cars). When you fail to drive the speed of traffic and slow every one else down, you have no business on the road and are a hazard. Bicyclists ought to stay off roads faster than they can ride.
    - kiliantics 7y ago
      I personally find incompetent drivers to be far more hazardous than cyclists. Your point in defence of drivers here doesn't seem to address my issue of the ease with which drivers get licenced to drive but calls to question a matter of lack of infrastructure for cyclists. That would be great. It would also be great to improve everyone's driving.
    - cameronh90 7y ago
      You know we have fast roads and long rural stretches of road between cities in Europe also? Yet there are cyclists on those too here, including on 70mph dual carriageways. Sure, people sometimes complain about the inconvenience of being briefly stuck behind a cyclist, but people still mostly drive courteously around them and try not to kill them. Indeed, nearly all roads have a higher speed limit than most cyclists are capable of - though with the new e-bikes/s-pedelecs that's beginning to shift. The fundamental problem is that in order for infrastructure to be built, people need to first start cycling. If there are enough cyclists on those roads for it to become a traffic problem, eventually politicians and urban planners will build cycle paths, then hopefully more people will use them, etc. However I think in the US you have more than anything a cultural affinity toward the car. In the UK and much of western Europe, the roads (besides motorways) predate cars. Cars have to share that space with cyclists, horses, pedestrians. And generally speaking, the more vulnerable and untrained road users have the legal priority and the drivers of the fast metal boxes owe them a duty of care.
  - cgriswald 7y ago
    The disregard is universal. Those people who disregard bicyclists and pedestrians are also disregarding drivers. A lot of it is ignorance and incompetence. And it works both ways. Pedestrians and bicyclists (most of whom are also drivers) equally have disregard for others. It’s just that usually they’re only going to hurt themselves or inconvenience someone. Just in the past two days I’ve seen: A driver turn make an unprotected left through traffic going straight in the other direction and through pedestrians in the crosswalk. A bicyclist skip a stop sign and turn left in front my car. (It’s rare I see a bicyclist stop for stop signs at all.) A pedestrian standing on the corner pointed at an angle towards the intersection giving no indication to any of the traffic if he was intending to cross and in what direction. A driver run a red light full seconds after it was red. A driver stop in the middle of the road for no apparent reason. (Uber/Lyft drivers frequently do this even when they could pull out and in easily.) A driver pass someone in the turning lane while skipping a stop sign and then doing about 2x the speed limit. A bicyclist give a driver the finger when the driver was making a legal right on green and the bicyclist was trying to pass on the right.
    - kiliantics 7y ago
      In your final example, the cyclist is justified because drivers are supposed to wait for cyclists when they make a right turn, just as they are supposed to wait for pedestrians. Most of your examples are of drivers making mistakes and, when drivers make mistakes, the odds are higher that a large mass of steel will hit people at high momentum. This is not the case when pedestrians or cyclists make mistakes. We should focus on why we have so many cars on the road and why they are driven by people who are not responsible.
      - cgriswald 7y ago
        Actually, no. Drivers here are required to yield to a bicyclist already in the bike lane and then enter the bike lane and turn from the curb. He did. The cyclist showed up later and tried to pass on the right, in the legal sense. The heavy focus on “cars suck” isn’t realistic here. The reasons why are well known. The cities and especially the suburbs were built around cars. You won’t catch me arguing against much more difficult to acquire licenses or more bike lanes or better crosswalks. You won’t even catch me arguing against fewer cars. But it’s going to be a long time before there’s significantly fewer cars. The idea that drivers are the only ones out there responsible for safety is reflected in the dangerous and inconsiderate behavior of bicyclists and pedestrians. The reality is all three groups need education. But culturally the bicyclists don’t care and the pedestrians are lead to believe drivers are always at fault, causing them to do things like step into a crosswalk unexpectedly after a car is already halfway through the intersection.
cgriswald 7y ago
Lets talk about “roundabouts”. Near my home town they built one in the middle of nowhere because why not. Then they had to rebuild it because they hadn’t made it big enough for semis to get around. You can probably count on one hand how often each week two vehicles end up there at the same time. Near me now there are several “roundabouts”. One is a curb in the middle of what is otherwise a normal intersection. One direction has no signs. The other has stop signs. Another is three sawhorses with an arrow sign and a circle painted on the road around them. The arrow signs might as well just say “good luck”! No one uses them the way they are supposed to be used because no one trusts other people to use them the way they are supposed to be used. And with the ones near me they can’t possibly even function that way. All of these roundabouts only exist because people hear how great roundabouts are and demand them. And I’m sure they are great, but you need educated drivers, proper signage, enough space, and consistency. And they need to be used in spaces they’ll be effective. We get none of that anywhere in the states I’ve ever seen.
- kthejoker2 7y ago
  You serious, Clark? :) Counteranecdata - Our new roundabout in suburban Houston is great. But it meets your criteria so you have a good assessment of what's needed.

LanceH 7y ago

We just got one in my area. It's obviously the first time many people have seen one. And as you said, they are too hard for some people to figure out on the first time. I've seen people stopping in the traffic circle in places that don't even make sense to stop, under any circumstances. There is too much signage, if anything, and the left lane sign indicates it is for a left turn (not a sickle shaped, 270 degree left turn). Thankfully I haven't seen anyone making a left. One problem with traffic circles is they require a wider carve out in what would be the corners of a 4-way stop. This involves eminent domain or prior government ownership; either making retrofitting difficult.

kiliantics 7y ago
Compared with most European countries, the bar for being granted a driver's licence in the US is extremely low. It makes sense that it would be this way, given how difficult life is without a car in most places here, but I am often shocked at the standard of driving. In particular, the level of disregard for users of the road who are not in cars. But then, that also makes sense, since many people do not have much experience with using the road without a car.
- bin0 7y ago
  Not exactly. In America, distances are too long for bikes to effectively cover in most places that are not the east and west coasts. However, this also means that when inconsiderate bicyclists max out at 20-25mph on a 55mph road, they slow every one else down too (even those in cars). When you fail to drive the speed of traffic and slow every one else down, you have no business on the road and are a hazard. Bicyclists ought to stay off roads faster than they can ride.
  - kiliantics 7y ago
    I personally find incompetent drivers to be far more hazardous than cyclists. Your point in defence of drivers here doesn't seem to address my issue of the ease with which drivers get licenced to drive but calls to question a matter of lack of infrastructure for cyclists. That would be great. It would also be great to improve everyone's driving.
  - cameronh90 7y ago
    You know we have fast roads and long rural stretches of road between cities in Europe also? Yet there are cyclists on those too here, including on 70mph dual carriageways. Sure, people sometimes complain about the inconvenience of being briefly stuck behind a cyclist, but people still mostly drive courteously around them and try not to kill them. Indeed, nearly all roads have a higher speed limit than most cyclists are capable of - though with the new e-bikes/s-pedelecs that's beginning to shift. The fundamental problem is that in order for infrastructure to be built, people need to first start cycling. If there are enough cyclists on those roads for it to become a traffic problem, eventually politicians and urban planners will build cycle paths, then hopefully more people will use them, etc. However I think in the US you have more than anything a cultural affinity toward the car. In the UK and much of western Europe, the roads (besides motorways) predate cars. Cars have to share that space with cyclists, horses, pedestrians. And generally speaking, the more vulnerable and untrained road users have the legal priority and the drivers of the fast metal boxes owe them a duty of care.
- cgriswald 7y ago
  The disregard is universal. Those people who disregard bicyclists and pedestrians are also disregarding drivers. A lot of it is ignorance and incompetence. And it works both ways. Pedestrians and bicyclists (most of whom are also drivers) equally have disregard for others. It’s just that usually they’re only going to hurt themselves or inconvenience someone. Just in the past two days I’ve seen: A driver turn make an unprotected left through traffic going straight in the other direction and through pedestrians in the crosswalk. A bicyclist skip a stop sign and turn left in front my car. (It’s rare I see a bicyclist stop for stop signs at all.) A pedestrian standing on the corner pointed at an angle towards the intersection giving no indication to any of the traffic if he was intending to cross and in what direction. A driver run a red light full seconds after it was red. A driver stop in the middle of the road for no apparent reason. (Uber/Lyft drivers frequently do this even when they could pull out and in easily.) A driver pass someone in the turning lane while skipping a stop sign and then doing about 2x the speed limit. A bicyclist give a driver the finger when the driver was making a legal right on green and the bicyclist was trying to pass on the right.
  - kiliantics 7y ago
    In your final example, the cyclist is justified because drivers are supposed to wait for cyclists when they make a right turn, just as they are supposed to wait for pedestrians. Most of your examples are of drivers making mistakes and, when drivers make mistakes, the odds are higher that a large mass of steel will hit people at high momentum. This is not the case when pedestrians or cyclists make mistakes. We should focus on why we have so many cars on the road and why they are driven by people who are not responsible.
    - cgriswald 7y ago
      Actually, no. Drivers here are required to yield to a bicyclist already in the bike lane and then enter the bike lane and turn from the curb. He did. The cyclist showed up later and tried to pass on the right, in the legal sense. The heavy focus on “cars suck” isn’t realistic here. The reasons why are well known. The cities and especially the suburbs were built around cars. You won’t catch me arguing against much more difficult to acquire licenses or more bike lanes or better crosswalks. You won’t even catch me arguing against fewer cars. But it’s going to be a long time before there’s significantly fewer cars. The idea that drivers are the only ones out there responsible for safety is reflected in the dangerous and inconsiderate behavior of bicyclists and pedestrians. The reality is all three groups need education. But culturally the bicyclists don’t care and the pedestrians are lead to believe drivers are always at fault, causing them to do things like step into a crosswalk unexpectedly after a car is already halfway through the intersection.

cgriswald 7y ago

Lets talk about “roundabouts”. Near my home town they built one in the middle of nowhere because why not. Then they had to rebuild it because they hadn’t made it big enough for semis to get around. You can probably count on one hand how often each week two vehicles end up there at the same time. Near me now there are several “roundabouts”. One is a curb in the middle of what is otherwise a normal intersection. One direction has no signs. The other has stop signs. Another is three sawhorses with an arrow sign and a circle painted on the road around them. The arrow signs might as well just say “good luck”! No one uses them the way they are supposed to be used because no one trusts other people to use them the way they are supposed to be used. And with the ones near me they can’t possibly even function that way. All of these roundabouts only exist because people hear how great roundabouts are and demand them. And I’m sure they are great, but you need educated drivers, proper signage, enough space, and consistency. And they need to be used in spaces they’ll be effective. We get none of that anywhere in the states I’ve ever seen.

kthejoker2 7y ago
You serious, Clark? :) Counteranecdata - Our new roundabout in suburban Houston is great. But it meets your criteria so you have a good assessment of what's needed.