7 ms·

God forbid the global middle class can experience other cultures and get outside of their own bubble.

magduf 7y ago
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. I hate to bash liberals, because I usually identify as one, but this is definitely one of those places where it seems they can't make up their minds. They bash middle-class Americans for not being well-traveled enough, for not "thinking globally", for being too ignorant of cultures outside the US, etc. And now they're bashing middle-class Americans for touring overseas too much. WTF?
- dagw 7y ago
  Easy. They should have traveled the world 5-10 years ago when it was a Good Thing, and now they should stop. /s
- izzydata 7y ago
  Personally I wouldn't consider tourism to theme park style destinations as experiencing other cultures.
  - dagw 7y ago
    What do you mean by theme park like destinations? Can you name a place where someone from halfway around the world wouldn't be able to experience another culture.
    - izzydata 7y ago
      Observing some beautiful architecture in China and staying at a luxury hotel doesn't feel like experiencing what it means to live in China. It's a theme park in the sense that you are on a pre-determined course going from location to location.
      - harimau777 7y ago
        What's the alternative? Experiencing the culture in a more organic way requires time (and sometimes resources, e.g. language training) that your average person doesn't have. It seems to me that observing the cultural highlights is the best compromise that most people have access to.
        SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        My harshest rebuttal is to say that if you cannot afford to experience a culture organically, you're just consuming the junk food version of that culture and are better served reading a wikipedia page or watching a video. More mollified, I'd suggest that one can go to 'secondary cities'. Go to Alsace instead of Paris. Go to Sichuan instead of Beijing. Eat what the laborers eat for breakfast. Sleep in someone's home (isn't this what the supposed wonder of AirBnB is for?). Go to places that force you to experience culture just by facts of not having any easy tourist places to go or do.
        magduf 7y ago
        >Sleep in someone's home (isn't this what the supposed wonder of AirBnB is for?). If you use AirBnB, then all the people whining about tourism (which seems to include you) will get mad that you're avoiding the local governments' hotel regulations. Personally, I did use AirBnB when I was in Germany last year because the tourists had driven all the hotel prices through the roof in one city. It was a great experience, meeting and talking to a local and staying in a private home. But apparently the anti-travel (for other people besides themselves) liberals think I suck because I didn't use a high-priced hotel.
        SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        I think you're assuming a position I'm not making. I'm merely saying "it's too difficult" is a terrible excuse in this context. Also, I have nothing against AirBnB to meet and talk to locals genuinely hosting you in their homes. I have everything against converting residential housing such as apartments to commercial housing (eg. landlords buying multiple condos exclusively to make them AirBnBs)
- majewsky 7y ago
  > this is definitely one of those places where [liberals] seems they can't make up their minds It's as if the world isn't black and white after all and there is no single right solution for everything.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  How is this 'bashing middle class Americans'? It's not even American's that are usually the people complained about in these, I usually see China as one of the major sources of this 'surge of tourism.' There are plenty of ways to have both, part of it is exactly what the article talks about, spreading people around to more places instead of 'everyone' going to Paris, Venice, Amsterdam, or Rome.
- seattle_spring 7y ago
  The problem is that everyone is traveling to the exact same handful of hot spots. The world is massive, yet these people can't get creative enough to do something other than get that "iconic" picture of them holding up the Leaning Tower. You can see the same behavior reflected in the hiking culture here in Washington. There are thousands of unbelievable hikes, but a sunny weekend will see a mile-long section of cars at the parking lot for Stuart Lake / Colchuck Lake / The Enchantments, while other hikes throughout the state have no more than 3 or 4 cars.
  - notacoward 7y ago
    New Hampshire used to have the same problem in the White Mountains. Mt. Washington, Mt. Lafayette, and a few others were being overwhelmed, while almost nobody went anywhere else. One thing that helped was the popularization of the 4,000-footer list. Many people who might otherwise have followed the crowds because they simply didn't know any better were instead spread out on 48 peaks all over the park, from north to south and east to west. My wife has completed the list, I have somewhere around (probably just short of) 40, our 15yo daughter has around 20. A lot of our friends and acquaintances are also consciously planning trips around the list. Obviously there's a lot more to making this work, but it does seem to help spread both the trail impact and the commercial impact on the towns in the area.
  - harimau777 7y ago
    How would your average person go about identifying and arranging a trip to areas that would be meaningful to them but aren't popular?
    - notacoward 7y ago
      You could do a lot worse than to contact one of your local hiking clubs/associations - I'm from the Northeast, but at first glance the Washington Trail Association seems similar in scope to the Appalachian Mountain Club with which I'm familiar. You should be able to find everything from simple trail lists/maps to classes to already-planned trips with trained leaders etc. It's a fantastic way to learn about the area, learn new skills, and meet people.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  Because going to a foreign country and staying in an English speaking hotel between trips to landmarks and Burger King (but in Spain!!!) is not experiencing other cultures. You're the "Vince Vega" tourist who visits France and eats fucking McDonalds. You've completely missed the point of visiting another place, you've just gone to the place where America has exported its culture into another area, with all the grace and sensitivity of a hiker taking a dump on a birds nest.
  - samsonradu 7y ago
    While I find your comment quite rude, I remember having a “What the fuck!” moment when I saw the huge McDonalds on Champs-Elysees.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Sorry, I get punchy when people deliberately misconstrue what other people are saying to further their own biases. It's a particular trigger for me.
      - magduf 7y ago
        Well you should be pissed at yourself then, because I didn't misconstrue anything, yet you completely misconstrued what I wrote, and made ridiculous and untrue assumptions about me. Maybe you should stop projecting and try working on your own issues.
  - ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
    Did you just generalize all American tourists? I think people here expect better discussion than this.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      I'm replying to the assertion (which was a generalization itself) that liberals want people from the flyover states to get out of their bubble and travel, but when they do, make fun of them for it, and I responded to it by saying that's because so many tourists when they go abroad don't experience the culture of the country they visit; they experience at best a sanitized, western-friendly watered down version, or at worst, just miss it all entirely and visit chain restaurants and the regular "sights to see." Something like the Taj Majal is a sight to behold, certainly. But if you just go there, and oooo and aaah at it, and then go home, you haven't experienced a lick of India. You could've had the same experience with a Google Maps walkthrough. I don't find this offensive so much from a cultural standpoint as much as just a massive waste of time and resources, to jet across the world, go to a completely new place, and experience NOTHING in it. What was the point of it then!? You'd have been further ahead never leaving your damn sofa.
seattle_spring 7y ago
Most of the "global middle class" I know that travels does not experience other cultures at all. They stay in English speaking hotels, go to tourist trap restaurants, get the same picture everyone else in the world has, and experience it all with other tourists and approximately 0 locals. No one is speaking out against experiencing the world-- the article is specifically against everyone going to the exact same handful of overcrowded places.
- soared 7y ago
  Did you just generalize 1 billion people?
  - seattle_spring 7y ago
    In general most tourists go to tourist destinations. And in general, most tourist destinations are not the same as "experiencing local culture." It's like saying staying at an all inclusive resort in Jamaica is experiencing Jamaican culture. It's exactly why these spots are extremely crowded while other areas are not. Note that I didn't say all tourists do this, which seems to be what you're implying I'm saying.
    - alexk307 7y ago
      Jamaica is a bad example since most of the country is poor and not suitable for tourism. But I do agree that in particularly famous cities, there are entire pockets of it devoted to traditional Western culture for those who are not up to experiencing new cultures.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. I hate to bash liberals, because I usually identify as one, but this is definitely one of those places where it seems they can't make up their minds. They bash middle-class Americans for not being well-traveled enough, for not "thinking globally", for being too ignorant of cultures outside the US, etc. And now they're bashing middle-class Americans for touring overseas too much. WTF?

dagw 7y ago
Easy. They should have traveled the world 5-10 years ago when it was a Good Thing, and now they should stop. /s
izzydata 7y ago
Personally I wouldn't consider tourism to theme park style destinations as experiencing other cultures.
- dagw 7y ago
  What do you mean by theme park like destinations? Can you name a place where someone from halfway around the world wouldn't be able to experience another culture.
  - izzydata 7y ago
    Observing some beautiful architecture in China and staying at a luxury hotel doesn't feel like experiencing what it means to live in China. It's a theme park in the sense that you are on a pre-determined course going from location to location.
    - harimau777 7y ago
      What's the alternative? Experiencing the culture in a more organic way requires time (and sometimes resources, e.g. language training) that your average person doesn't have. It seems to me that observing the cultural highlights is the best compromise that most people have access to.
      - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        My harshest rebuttal is to say that if you cannot afford to experience a culture organically, you're just consuming the junk food version of that culture and are better served reading a wikipedia page or watching a video. More mollified, I'd suggest that one can go to 'secondary cities'. Go to Alsace instead of Paris. Go to Sichuan instead of Beijing. Eat what the laborers eat for breakfast. Sleep in someone's home (isn't this what the supposed wonder of AirBnB is for?). Go to places that force you to experience culture just by facts of not having any easy tourist places to go or do.
        magduf 7y ago
        >Sleep in someone's home (isn't this what the supposed wonder of AirBnB is for?). If you use AirBnB, then all the people whining about tourism (which seems to include you) will get mad that you're avoiding the local governments' hotel regulations. Personally, I did use AirBnB when I was in Germany last year because the tourists had driven all the hotel prices through the roof in one city. It was a great experience, meeting and talking to a local and staying in a private home. But apparently the anti-travel (for other people besides themselves) liberals think I suck because I didn't use a high-priced hotel.
        SolaceQuantum 7y ago
        I think you're assuming a position I'm not making. I'm merely saying "it's too difficult" is a terrible excuse in this context. Also, I have nothing against AirBnB to meet and talk to locals genuinely hosting you in their homes. I have everything against converting residential housing such as apartments to commercial housing (eg. landlords buying multiple condos exclusively to make them AirBnBs)
majewsky 7y ago
> this is definitely one of those places where [liberals] seems they can't make up their minds It's as if the world isn't black and white after all and there is no single right solution for everything.
rtkwe 7y ago
How is this 'bashing middle class Americans'? It's not even American's that are usually the people complained about in these, I usually see China as one of the major sources of this 'surge of tourism.' There are plenty of ways to have both, part of it is exactly what the article talks about, spreading people around to more places instead of 'everyone' going to Paris, Venice, Amsterdam, or Rome.
seattle_spring 7y ago
The problem is that everyone is traveling to the exact same handful of hot spots. The world is massive, yet these people can't get creative enough to do something other than get that "iconic" picture of them holding up the Leaning Tower. You can see the same behavior reflected in the hiking culture here in Washington. There are thousands of unbelievable hikes, but a sunny weekend will see a mile-long section of cars at the parking lot for Stuart Lake / Colchuck Lake / The Enchantments, while other hikes throughout the state have no more than 3 or 4 cars.
- notacoward 7y ago
  New Hampshire used to have the same problem in the White Mountains. Mt. Washington, Mt. Lafayette, and a few others were being overwhelmed, while almost nobody went anywhere else. One thing that helped was the popularization of the 4,000-footer list. Many people who might otherwise have followed the crowds because they simply didn't know any better were instead spread out on 48 peaks all over the park, from north to south and east to west. My wife has completed the list, I have somewhere around (probably just short of) 40, our 15yo daughter has around 20. A lot of our friends and acquaintances are also consciously planning trips around the list. Obviously there's a lot more to making this work, but it does seem to help spread both the trail impact and the commercial impact on the towns in the area.
- harimau777 7y ago
  How would your average person go about identifying and arranging a trip to areas that would be meaningful to them but aren't popular?
  - notacoward 7y ago
    You could do a lot worse than to contact one of your local hiking clubs/associations - I'm from the Northeast, but at first glance the Washington Trail Association seems similar in scope to the Appalachian Mountain Club with which I'm familiar. You should be able to find everything from simple trail lists/maps to classes to already-planned trips with trained leaders etc. It's a fantastic way to learn about the area, learn new skills, and meet people.
FussyZeus 7y ago
Because going to a foreign country and staying in an English speaking hotel between trips to landmarks and Burger King (but in Spain!!!) is not experiencing other cultures. You're the "Vince Vega" tourist who visits France and eats fucking McDonalds. You've completely missed the point of visiting another place, you've just gone to the place where America has exported its culture into another area, with all the grace and sensitivity of a hiker taking a dump on a birds nest.
- samsonradu 7y ago
  While I find your comment quite rude, I remember having a “What the fuck!” moment when I saw the huge McDonalds on Champs-Elysees.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Sorry, I get punchy when people deliberately misconstrue what other people are saying to further their own biases. It's a particular trigger for me.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Well you should be pissed at yourself then, because I didn't misconstrue anything, yet you completely misconstrued what I wrote, and made ridiculous and untrue assumptions about me. Maybe you should stop projecting and try working on your own issues.
- ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
  Did you just generalize all American tourists? I think people here expect better discussion than this.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    I'm replying to the assertion (which was a generalization itself) that liberals want people from the flyover states to get out of their bubble and travel, but when they do, make fun of them for it, and I responded to it by saying that's because so many tourists when they go abroad don't experience the culture of the country they visit; they experience at best a sanitized, western-friendly watered down version, or at worst, just miss it all entirely and visit chain restaurants and the regular "sights to see." Something like the Taj Majal is a sight to behold, certainly. But if you just go there, and oooo and aaah at it, and then go home, you haven't experienced a lick of India. You could've had the same experience with a Google Maps walkthrough. I don't find this offensive so much from a cultural standpoint as much as just a massive waste of time and resources, to jet across the world, go to a completely new place, and experience NOTHING in it. What was the point of it then!? You'd have been further ahead never leaving your damn sofa.

seattle_spring 7y ago

Most of the "global middle class" I know that travels does not experience other cultures at all. They stay in English speaking hotels, go to tourist trap restaurants, get the same picture everyone else in the world has, and experience it all with other tourists and approximately 0 locals. No one is speaking out against experiencing the world-- the article is specifically against everyone going to the exact same handful of overcrowded places.

soared 7y ago
Did you just generalize 1 billion people?
- seattle_spring 7y ago
  In general most tourists go to tourist destinations. And in general, most tourist destinations are not the same as "experiencing local culture." It's like saying staying at an all inclusive resort in Jamaica is experiencing Jamaican culture. It's exactly why these spots are extremely crowded while other areas are not. Note that I didn't say all tourists do this, which seems to be what you're implying I'm saying.
  - alexk307 7y ago
    Jamaica is a bad example since most of the country is poor and not suitable for tourism. But I do agree that in particularly famous cities, there are entire pockets of it devoted to traditional Western culture for those who are not up to experiencing new cultures.