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This really isn’t true. Much of government sponsored education teaches this, especially by teaching about the peaceful side of successful movements without ment

This really isn’t true. Much of government sponsored education teaches this, especially by teaching about the peaceful side of successful movements without mentioning the violent side. MLK and Gandhi were effective leaders, but there were very large, very violent riots going on from their camps too. The reason why governments negotiate with non violent actors is to avoid the alternative which is the violent actors.

mc32 7y ago
If you look at VZ, RU, CN, it’s clear that if a government doesn’t want to, it will not negotiate and will simply roll you over. Change has to come from within; you need people like Gorbachev. Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes many decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Right at the end of Gorbachev's change the street fighting suddenly became important: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat... Whenever there's a revolution there's a potential counter-revolution. It's rare to be able to spike the guns with carnations, like Portugal. > Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake. This is something every would-be revolutionary kid needs to internalise and ask themselves if they are really ready for. The cost is huge and mostly borne by vulnerable other people.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > Whenever there's a revolution there's a potential counter-revolution. It's rare to be able to spike the guns with carnations, like Portugal. Portugal's carnation revolution is a clear example that change has to come from within. The man behind the coup was General Spínola, the man in charge of Portugal's fight against independence movements in Portuguese guinea. Prior to the revolution he wrote a book on how the war was unwinnable to pressure Portugal's ruling dictatorship into a political solution, to which the ruling Portuguese dictator refused. Consequently a couple of coups were attempted and when they finally succeeded the dictator surrendered and General Spínola took over as interim president of Portugal, enactig the political changes he defended such as ending fighting and jump-starting a transition to a democratic regime. Meanwhile, the dictatorship's single-party parliament already included groups of representatives, such as Sá Carneiro's liberal wing, who were not only openly against the dictatorship but also openly advocated for a transition to democracy. You can't get more internal than that.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes many decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake. This is one of the points emphasised by [0| I call it the 3.5% talk]. The argument is that nonviolent peaceful "revolutions" are not only more successful in toppling regimes, they also make it easier to build a new one. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

mc32 7y ago

If you look at VZ, RU, CN, it’s clear that if a government doesn’t want to, it will not negotiate and will simply roll you over. Change has to come from within; you need people like Gorbachev. Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes many decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake.

pjc50 7y ago
Right at the end of Gorbachev's change the street fighting suddenly became important: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat... Whenever there's a revolution there's a potential counter-revolution. It's rare to be able to spike the guns with carnations, like Portugal. > Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake. This is something every would-be revolutionary kid needs to internalise and ask themselves if they are really ready for. The cost is huge and mostly borne by vulnerable other people.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > Whenever there's a revolution there's a potential counter-revolution. It's rare to be able to spike the guns with carnations, like Portugal. Portugal's carnation revolution is a clear example that change has to come from within. The man behind the coup was General Spínola, the man in charge of Portugal's fight against independence movements in Portuguese guinea. Prior to the revolution he wrote a book on how the war was unwinnable to pressure Portugal's ruling dictatorship into a political solution, to which the ruling Portuguese dictator refused. Consequently a couple of coups were attempted and when they finally succeeded the dictator surrendered and General Spínola took over as interim president of Portugal, enactig the political changes he defended such as ending fighting and jump-starting a transition to a democratic regime. Meanwhile, the dictatorship's single-party parliament already included groups of representatives, such as Sá Carneiro's liberal wing, who were not only openly against the dictatorship but also openly advocated for a transition to democracy. You can't get more internal than that.
perfunctory 7y ago
> Revolutions bring lots of bloodshed and animosity and pits friends against friends. It takes many decades to heal from that. There is also a vast and deep trail of wasted lives in its wake. This is one of the points emphasised by [0| I call it the 3.5% talk]. The argument is that nonviolent peaceful "revolutions" are not only more successful in toppling regimes, they also make it easier to build a new one. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w