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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over
- flyinglizard 7y agoNot sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.
- dustinmoris 7y agoAgreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country in this world - Russia - would always back China in a geopolitical conflict, so nobody has the balls to challenge Russia and China at once for good reasons. EDIT: Besides that, I am pretty confident that the media makes it look a lot worse than it actually is too. I've been to China and Hong Kong. In China people looked relaxed, spent time relaxing in parks and socialising. I went to Hong Kong and it was unbearable crammed, people were stressed and over worked and there was no escape from the hamster wheel. No wonder mainland Chinese have little sympathy for HK.
- throwaway2048 7y agoLuckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom. Letting China get away with dominating Hong Kong isn't going to do them 1 tiny iota of good long term, if they ever hope to make a stand, the time is now.
- cdmckay 7y agoOr maybe the people in China are happy with their system? Not sure how that makes them cowards.
- barry-cotter 7y ago> Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom. Luckily how? They’re going to lose. If they want freedom they’re going to have to leave China for it, emigrate. All the protest isn’t going to buy them victory. The CPC isn’t going to allow Hong Kong to publicly defeat it; that would be domestically politically disruptive. They’d rather abrogate the one country two systems agreement and just abolish the SAR’s freedoms altogether.
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- pishpash 7y agoNah, they don't really think anything will happen to them in HK. While admirable in certain respects, they are not even taking half the risk that Tian'anmen Square students took, hiding behind their masks.
- loriverkutya 7y ago> I've been to China and Hong Kong. In China people looked relaxed, spent time relaxing in parks and socialising. I assume you did not visited Xinjiang where Uyghurs are not really relaxing in parks.
- rado 7y agoHis point stands when you compare the streets of the major cities to the onslaught of Western propaganda that ignores everyday life. Propaganda against "communism" which just isn't there. A large portion of the lawmakers in Beijing are industrialists.
- icebraining 7y agoCan you point to some representative examples of that onslaught of Western propaganda against communism in China?
- rado 7y agoWP, NYT, BBC etc – mostly negative articles. It's like nothing outside of a few contention points exists over there. It's ridiculous.
- nobody0 7y agoHave you visited there then? What I know is there haven't been major terrorist attacks for quite a few years.
- EliRivers 7y agoIn China people looked relaxed, spent time relaxing in parks and socialising. I went to Hong Kong and it was unbearable crammed, people were stressed and over worked and there was no escape from the hamster wheel. No wonder mainland Chinese have little sympathy for HK. I don't follow. If life in China is so nice and life in HK is so stressed and unbearable, wouldn't the people of mainland China have more sympathy for HK?
- kitsune_ 7y agoWhy would they? You need a pretty convincing story to justify protests that disrupt 'normal' life, especially to mainlanders who saw a miraculous improvement of their living standards in their life time. It's pretty easy to exploit the scenes of protestors throwing a Chinese flag into the sea and drumming up a patriotic sentiment with it.
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- krig 7y agoYou realise that you don't see dissent in China because dissent is a death sentence there?
- xhruso00 7y agoThere are people on HN that has never been to China neither Hong Kong and they simply downvote cause they only think. True experience of being harassed in China for being white is something they have never experienced.
- Darmody 7y agoSo they should stay at home and accept anything that comes from China?
- barking 7y agoI thought they should have stopped the protests when the administration suspended the extradition bill. But then again as it is, people are disappearing from HK and reappearing in Chinese jails, so maybe they are right to push on. It's hard to see them winning though.
- eric-hu 7y agoThe protesters announced that suspension seemed like a ploy to wait for a time when the public lost focus and reintroduce it again later. It's a pretty legitimate concern IMO.
- barking 7y agoI can understand that, I fear they are fighting a losing battle though. I listened to a commentator over the weekend talking about this whole business. He said that China have very many economic levers they can apply to HK to get their way and that military force is still a very distant option. The first thing that will happen is that Carrie Lam will be pushed aside and replaced with someone more hardline. They won't do it now because it would look like a victory for the protesters.
- barry-cotter 7y agoNo, do something that has a chance of helping them, their friends and their families and start the process of emigration. The Chinese government is no more going to back down now than they were in 1989. They have much less sentimental attachment to the people of Hong Kong than to the students who protested then. The PRC will absolutely send in the People’s Liberation Army to occupy Hong Kong if that’s the only way to restore order with them in charge. They’d prefer a broken, bowed and destroyed Hong Kong with them in charge to anything that looks like them losing.
- hvidgaard 7y agoIn that case, they force China to show its real intentions. Most of the world already know, but getting them to, by action, admit it publicly would be a victory for the protesters. Not that it will save the HK they live in.
- cdmckay 7y agoChina has already stated their real intentions. After 50 years of autonomy, there will be no 1 country, 2 systems. They stated this when they took over control of HK and Macau. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems
- hvidgaard 7y agoFrom the very first paragraph of your link > Under the principle, each of the two regions could continue to have its own governmental system, legal, economic and financial affairs, including trade relations with foreign countries. Yet they're trying to pass a law that essentially allow China to extradite people in HK to mainland China, for any reason mainland China makes up. That is not 1 country, 2 systems as the legal system in mainland China can dictate what people they want extradited from HK. Even the EU have made a formal complaint against the law. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition-eu/eu-lodges-formal-diplomatic-note-against-contentious-hong-kong-extradition-bill-idUSKCN1SU0OS https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition-eu/e...
- history_push 7y agoThere's no evidence that China makes up the law. The HK government draft this law to extradite a criminal who commits murder in Taiwan. The law also excludes a bunch of crimes.
- cdmckay 7y agoMy impression would be that China isn't going to flip a switch after 50 years and suddenly switch to the Chinese system. I would imagine they would do it gradually like they're doing now.
- yulaow 7y agoWhat's the alternative? China is already taking direct action to control HK more tightly, all HK citizens can do is rise awareness via protests, push forward their political ideology and hope for the best. China will probably crack down on them anyway, but they could still reinforce the vast number of regional separatists present in various areas of the nation, and sooner or later they could bring down the whole despotic government (or not, but it's worth trying).
- qwsxyh 7y agoI would imagine their end game is "civil disruption".
- incognitanon 7y agoI am a Hongkonger. I think the protesters have shifted their target to HK airport because of its value in logistics and tourism. The airport is also a place with lots of visitors, who may be the potential witnesses if HK police did anything unreasonable.
- mytailorisrich 7y agoThis year is the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen protests and the 70th anniversary of the People's Republic of China (to be celebrated on October 1st). In January the Presidential election will also take place in Taiwan. And, of course, there is also the tense situation between China and the US at the moment. We can imagine a lot of scenarios and competing interests at play here. Forcing China to take direct action may indeed be the goal of some of these interests, and China knows it.
- pishpash 7y agoWell fuck me if there is no organization here. The longer this goes on, the more it seems strategically planned and logistically organized well beyond the capability of naive 17-year-olds.
- dnh44 7y agoThey’re forcing China to change their current strategy which was to slowly and quietly impose their sovereignty. They’re putting China into a position where there are no good moves. Maybe we’ll see a unilateral declaration of independence.
- bsaul 7y agoTo look at potential endgames, one needs to look back at history and see how people protesting for more freedom against dictatorial regimes have gone ( either through independance, or regime change). French revolution was a blood bath, soviet union collapsed after 80 years for economical reasons (among other things), and i don’t know of any independance gained without some kind of military conflict involved. My best bet for HK would be if someone living there could release massive financial information about china’s largest companies proving most of them are fraudulent (if that’s the case), and cause a major economical meltdown ( hoping for a regime change in china itself)... But that means aiming for the head, which means you only get one chance.
- ninedays 7y ago"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.
- pasiaj 7y agoEverything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing, but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?
- culturestate 7y agoThis movement (which has been building for years) has one very specific goal: true universal suffrage and free elections. Whether that comes as a protectorate of China or as an independent state seems almost inconsequential to many people. Everything else (extradition, the five demands, et cetera) is just a series of sub-plots leading to self governance.
- pishpash 7y agoThey had that chance in 2014, but rejected all compromise or incremental improvement.
- culturestate 7y agoElections aren't free if you can only vote for candidates that have the government's blessing.
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- skilled 7y agoI don't understand why HK hasn't done anything about this? I mean, the protests. This doesn't look like your average worker strike and people seem genuinely determined to get a change of direction. Anyone who has been involved with this, can you comment on the latest government response to the "demands" from people?
- sgjohnson 7y agoBecause the HK government are Chinese puppets. They can't (and don't want to) do anything, because their communist overlords don't want to. There's too many protestors to dissapear them all.
- pishpash 7y agoMaking simplistic caricatures won't help the cause. There is a constitutional path towards having these demands discussed off the street, but some people have no respect for process while denouncing the same of the other side. "My way or the high way." No sympathy for either side.
- sgjohnson 7y agoIs there? Because as far as I can tell, the protesters believe that they are under foreign occupation. And I tend to side with them? “Constitutional path”? Hong Kongs self rule has been gradually eroded since 1997.
- pishpash 7y agoThey can believe that rhetorical fantasy, but HK being a part of China isn't going to be re-litigated. Everything else is theoretically possible, though the more protests try to tear down the "one country" part (anti-Article 23, 2014 protests, etc.), the more the "two systems" part becomes endangered. That's a cold-headed assessment of what has been happening since 1997.
- baybal2 7y agoPLA was doing innuendo charged manoeuvres for the past 2 months all over the province. Today, they were finally moved to the HK bridge terminus. They even plastered banners with something like "you got it" on their APCs
- danieltillett 7y agoI have been wondering how long it will be before the HK gov calls in the PLA to 'restore order'.
- baybal2 7y agoThe day it will do it, will also be its last, so they will both sides in HK have interest to drag it out.
- bitanarch 7y agoThe new protests happened because a new round of violence from the HK Police, towards both protesters and people unrelated to protests. e.g. Firing less-lethal rounds directly at head level, causing permanent blindness https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_protestor_was_head_shot_and_shot_in_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_p... e.g. Planting evidence into protester's backpack https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put_weapon_in_the_backpack_of_captured/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put... e.g. Firing tear gas in subway station, which was being used by the general public https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cp8qyy/hong_kong_police_firing_tear_gas_indoors_not/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cp8qyy/hong_kong_...
- maeln 7y agoI will add that there is now suspicion of police infiltrating protest to start violent clash: https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474213-20190812.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474213-20190812.h... I wouldn't be very surprise if it was the case as it is often a tactic use, even in our western democracies, to justify stronger and more violent police operation and also tarnish the image of the protest.
- onetimemanytime 7y agoHong Kong is a matter of national security to China. Something countries go to wars till the last man over. So what you mentioned is nothing, China has a lot more goodies in the bag. Here's one: Granting pardons or giving immunity to top criminal gangs as a long as they kill xxx revolt leaders.
- johnchristopher 7y agoWhy is this comment downvoted ? In my country, Belgium, headlines were along the lines of "The real question now is: how patient is Beijing inclined to be ?".
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- cltsang 7y agoNot sure what the government is trying to achieve by shutting down the airport and sending in the police to clear the scene. AFAIK the protesters are not causing any trouble there, no flights are affected. There are many who chose to sit-in at the airport since they do not agree with the escalation of the protests in other districts. Also there are elderlies and parents who have to carry and look after their children, who just cannot bear tear gas and rubber pullets. This act by the government will only catch more foreign attention, and put more pages on the pile of recent police brutality.
- pishpash 7y agoYou gotta ask with a critical mind, why is it that things are going just fine in Macau with the same One Country Two Systems setup?
- pjc50 7y agoMacau is 1/10 the size with an economy mostly focused on gambling? Macau has a significantly weaker democratic tradition having been part of the Portuguese military dictatorship until 1974?
- johnmarcus 7y agoIf I remember correctly, Maccau was a troubled place with a lot of gang violence (probably related to the large number of casino's) when it was handed over the to Chinese from the Portuguese. I don't think they enjoyed quite the same level of democratic and independent rule that Hong Kong-ers became accustomed to. Macau's economy is also largely based on casino's.
- tempeirn 7y agoMacau is small.. like real small. Macau is more akin to a neighborhood in some American cities. And it’s not really working fine in Macau. Take a look at it’s leader, clearly corrupt and put in place as a puppet.
- kitsune_ 7y agoI don't think this will end well, the more this drags on, the more violent it will probably become. At some point the state will probably have a pretty good excuse to declare martial law and enforce order by military means, ultimately it might fasten the integration of Hong Kong into the PRC instead of delaying it.
- willis936 7y agoYou’re implying that the people should just lay down and take it? They are risking their lives for their principles and they are doing it the right way.
- cattlefarmer 7y agoA pragmatist would lay down and take it, while preparing to emigrate out of HK as soon as possible.
- willis936 7y agoI don’t speak for the people of Hong Kong, but I could imagine many people caring deeply about a place that is considered home, with a specific culture and set of people.
- throwaway2048 7y agoIts not easy to immigrate out of a country you realize
- high_derivative 7y agoThis is intensely interesting because everything points towards China never backing down, and protesters having nothing to win. The default assumption is continuity of the party and the system. Yet, looking at history, systems are not that stable. The Berlin wall and Sowjet union seemed like they would not end. I assume 3-letter agencies have vast amounts of resources dedicated to analyzing how to create the instabilities that may ultimately make such systems collapse. Bottom line, historically speaking, we should not be surprised if China collapses. We should also not be surprised if the party keeps its tight grip for another 100 years.
- Simon_says 7y agoThe Soviets were bankrupt.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoAs the Chinese are heading toward now, at a dead run.
- notwumao 7y agoI am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past, have started donating money to pro-government causes. Supportive comments of the mainland government have risen dramatically among private chatters. It seems to me that the HK protesters' messages do not resonate well with most Chinese people.
- CogitoCogito 7y agoMay I ask you why you are against the protests? Also would you support the CCP making a public statement taking a step back and agreeing to listen to the protesters' concerns?
- vezycash 7y agoCognitive dissonance?
- tluyben2 7y agoCannot speak for OP but my Chinese mainland friends do not condone of the protests because they simply do not want to rock the boat in any way. Just live life, make money (preferably lots of it, so expensive brands can be bought), raise a family, help your neighbor. Let the gov run the country and keep your interests and discussions out of it. They believe HK will be a better, easier, more organized and more peaceful place when it joins the motherland. Normal people will be able to get houses again as the gov will redistribute them and life will be organized; no need for all this noise and violence.
- CogitoCogito 7y agoBut it’s the CCP that’s been pushing changes. If they just stopped pushing for changes between Hong Kong and the mainland, they would largely (if not entirely) placate the protesters. The CCP is the one rocking the boat!
- xhruso00 7y agoUnfortunately Hong Kong can't be saved. Government officials are puppets of Beijing and they are all afraid of their future. They want to avoid hard labour and re-education camps...
- vijucat 7y agoComplicating the nature of these protests is that the 5 overt demands put forth by protestors (all related to the Extradition Bill) do not reflect a large cause of the latent / tacit discontent: the inability of youngsters to buy a home and raise a family due to collusion between property developers and government to restrict land supply. This author has stated the problem better than I can: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3022107/midst-hong-kongs-turmoil-carrie-lam-must-prioritise-housing-crisis https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3022107/midst-h... Decades of this squeeze have placed youngsters in a position where they have nothing to lose: Hong Kong has so many shiny buildings and not a square foot to their name. I was once getting flowers for my wife and ended up talking to a couple planning for their wedding reception at the florist. I was shocked to learn that they had discussed it and will not be having children because it is unaffordable. In my opinion, the Extradition Bill is just the final straw that broke that camel's back.
- baybal2 7y agoI'm afraid that this argument is just a diversionary manoeuvre tying to shift the narrative. I do feel it is being planted by pro-BJ side, to allow Beijing to waltz in and say "Apartments for everyone, now go home" It feels manufactured — the ones rioting are the higher middle classes, who despite astronomical real estate prices can still survive somehow, not the homeless youth living in McDonaldses. To provide some context to outsiders: housing to HK is pretty much like the healthcare is to America. Patently broken, but is pretty much a part of the class identity. Higher ups on the social ladder don't mind much to continue to "bite the cactus," and some even think of it as something normal, even actively trying to subvert efforts to fix the situation.
- pimmen 7y agoSouth China Morning Post to me doesn't have the credibility to make claims about representing Hong Kong's actual sentiment or discontents. When they interview Gui Minhai between torture sessions and publish his forced confession, not even questioning Beijing why neither his daughter nor Swedish authorities hadn't been allowed any contact with him, they lose a lot of faith from me in their journalistic integrity. https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2018/04/daughter-confronts-scmp-editor-over-forced-confession-coverage/ https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2018/04/daughter-confronts-scm...
- pinkskip 7y agoHKIA is the critical lifeline of Hong Kong, the economy is already suffering, i think its matter of time before PLA gets involved. I'm very concerned for Hong Kong and its people.
- willis936 7y agoWhat could force possibly accomplish? Do you think an economy would operate after you massacre thousands? Do you think people would show up to work? They could sack the city, guaranteeing no money would come out of it. If it’s profit they want then they will need to bend, not break.
- pinkskip 7y agoI agree that force would only result in more pushback. But Beijing increasingly sees Hong Kong as a problematic territory. At the time of handover Hong Kong almost constituted 18% of China’s GDP and now it’s less than that of what Shenzhen contributes. So Hong Kong is losing its leverage to claim autonomy and if Hong Kong’s economy further contracts, what choice people in Hong Kong have?
- dustinmoris 7y agoSo far China has been extremely calm and restrained itself from doing anything premature and yet they are being portrayed as the absolute worst people. On the other hand there are governments like the US which immediately respond with military action even in countries where people protest which have nothing to do with the US and they are being portrayed as the heroes. It's funny how the HK protests and the immense media coverage coincide with the trade war escalations between the US and China. Even this forum is being gamed by people who come here and specifically post and upvote a narrative which they want to push on us. Anyone who doesn't see through this bs is naive.
- icebraining 7y ago> governments like the US (...) are being portrayed as the heroes. Where, exactly? Please demonstrate who and where is the US portrayed as a hero by more than a handful of non-Americans.
- willis936 7y agoWhy would mainland China do anything? They have complete control over HK and plan on doing what they did in 2014: waiting. In the default case they win and they know it. If everyone in HK knows this too and wants change the protests will continue to grow in size until mainland China has to come to the table. Edit: also proposing that anything other than believing a stretch conspiracy qualifies as “naiveté” is a waste of typing. People will come to their own conclusions, as you clearly have.
- factsaresacred 7y ago> So far China has been extremely calm and restrained itself from doing anything premature and yet they are being portrayed as the absolute worst people. Ah yes, the calm and restrained Chinese Communist Party. A party that: - gunned down its own citizens, erased the fact, and continues to harasses the grieving mothers - sends its Muslim population to concentration camps - decimated Chinese society in the mid 20th century - disappears people for crimes like demanding democracy "are being portrayed as the absolute worst people". Boohoo.
- LifeLiverTransp 7y agoCould HK declare indypendence and join taiwan?
- chychiu 7y agoNew to Hacker News - Is there a reason why this has disappeared from the front page within minutes? It was on the top of the front page as of 9:02pm AEST (4:02AM PDT).
- jddj 7y agoIt may have been gaining far more comments than upvotes for a time? This is seen as a red flag by the algorithm, as it suggests that the thread is overly controversial.
- theseadroid 7y agoMany people might have flagged it as offtopic of this forum.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y agoWord on the street is that the airport is being cleared of passengers so police can violently crack down on the peaceful protesters who have been staging a sit-in inside for three days now.
- tictoc 7y agoPerhaps slightly unrelated, but do people believe a dictatorship like China can thrive as a first world economy by suppressing people's basic fundamental human rights?
- tempeirn 7y agoYes. I actually do. People have been saying communist can’t survive, but look what China has achieved and continues to achieve. It’s scary but saying dictatorships can’t survive dismisses any possible understanding that it might.
- staticautomatic 7y agoChina is not communist under any political scientific definition.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoMaybe? It's too early to tell. So far they've survived that way, but they haven't been a first-world economy for very long.