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Purely my opinion but can it be that the main issue is just plain old generalization? When someone says "Straight white men still hold the majority of political

by chpmrc 7y ago

Purely my opinion but can it be that the main issue is just plain old generalization? When someone says "Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world" they are excluding the vast majority of straight white men. I'm straight, I'm white and I just have a job, like most of us. My boss is a woman. Why shouldn't women (and people in general) worry about hurting my feelings just because there are other straight white men with a lot of money and power? That's just dumb.

igorkraw 7y ago
>I'm straight, I'm white and I just have a job, like most of us. My boss is a woman. Why shouldn't women (and people in general) worry about hurting my feelings just because there are other straight white men with a lot of money and power? That's just dumb. Which is why no serious feminist (or gender-egalitarian or menslibber or whatever) should excuse women being bitches. But it doesn't change the fact that >(...) When someone says "Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world" they are excluding the vast majority of straight white men. they are still, well,correct. It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. The "main issue" probably isn't singular, but my take is that a) the dissolution of "soft" power structures (men over women, social view of whites over blacks, straight over LGBTQ+...) will take time to be culturally processed b)activists need to embrace and push the difference between "problematic" and "bad", and push the idea that "good people" can and should be criticized for bad stuff they do, without immediately crucifying them - and the rest of the world will need to learn and embrace that difference, and also learn how to actually listen to people who might be oppressed, the difference between being publicly criticized and "having their life ruined" (there is much more to this, but this would get too long) c) hard structures (job expectations, economic incentives) need to be changed to accommodate the (assumed as desired) new social structures. E.g. the "google memo" guy had a very good point which was very positively received in the (german) feminist circles I hung out in online at the time, namely that maybe we need to enforce "work life balance" in the fields where women are underrepresented, because if the job expectation is to forego a family life, that makes it drastically more likely for women to nope out than men.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. Wouldn't it be more precise to just say "rich", and to replace "rich" with other attributes that aren't good predictors is just (intentionally) leading away from precision?
- nesadi 7y ago
  > they are still, well,correct. It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. Well, no. The sentiment is that men are generally more privileged and hold positions of power, and that each and every man is responsible for the state of things, stemming from toxic masculinity or whatever else. The fact that some 0.1% of the world's population holds the majority of political, economic and social power in the world is quickly ignored and somehow excuses sexism against men as a whole. I've been in enough arguments with feminists to see plain old sexism/misandry at play. These aren't people who want equality, these are people who want to punish men for being a particular gender and don't care about whatever issues or problems men might have.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Way to categorize an entire subject as "These people"! Like they're all the same and all work the same way. Oh wait, that's just the complaint being made...this post is my vote for the record unintentionally ironic post of the year. Try being a woman for even a day. Its not all about male world leadership (though that has its ghastly consequences). Its about so many guys in a position of power, marginalizing women daily.
    - nesadi 7y ago
      > Try being a woman for even a day Because being a woman is automatically harder than being a man? I'm a man every day. I want to kill myself every day. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Who wins? Nobody. Everybody is suffering, yet somehow only women get to have people fight to help them. The response to my comment is telling. Nobody cares about random guy. He should just suck it up and take it like a man.

by chpmrc 7y ago

igorkraw 7y ago

>I'm straight, I'm white and I just have a job, like most of us. My boss is a woman. Why shouldn't women (and people in general) worry about hurting my feelings just because there are other straight white men with a lot of money and power? That's just dumb. Which is why no serious feminist (or gender-egalitarian or menslibber or whatever) should excuse women being bitches. But it doesn't change the fact that >(...) When someone says "Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world" they are excluding the vast majority of straight white men. they are still, well,correct. It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. The "main issue" probably isn't singular, but my take is that a) the dissolution of "soft" power structures (men over women, social view of whites over blacks, straight over LGBTQ+...) will take time to be culturally processed b)activists need to embrace and push the difference between "problematic" and "bad", and push the idea that "good people" can and should be criticized for bad stuff they do, without immediately crucifying them - and the rest of the world will need to learn and embrace that difference, and also learn how to actually listen to people who might be oppressed, the difference between being publicly criticized and "having their life ruined" (there is much more to this, but this would get too long) c) hard structures (job expectations, economic incentives) need to be changed to accommodate the (assumed as desired) new social structures. E.g. the "google memo" guy had a very good point which was very positively received in the (german) feminist circles I hung out in online at the time, namely that maybe we need to enforce "work life balance" in the fields where women are underrepresented, because if the job expectation is to forego a family life, that makes it drastically more likely for women to nope out than men.

luckylion 7y ago
> It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. Wouldn't it be more precise to just say "rich", and to replace "rich" with other attributes that aren't good predictors is just (intentionally) leading away from precision?
nesadi 7y ago
> they are still, well,correct. It'd be more precise to say "rich straight white...", but the sentiment is true. Well, no. The sentiment is that men are generally more privileged and hold positions of power, and that each and every man is responsible for the state of things, stemming from toxic masculinity or whatever else. The fact that some 0.1% of the world's population holds the majority of political, economic and social power in the world is quickly ignored and somehow excuses sexism against men as a whole. I've been in enough arguments with feminists to see plain old sexism/misandry at play. These aren't people who want equality, these are people who want to punish men for being a particular gender and don't care about whatever issues or problems men might have.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Way to categorize an entire subject as "These people"! Like they're all the same and all work the same way. Oh wait, that's just the complaint being made...this post is my vote for the record unintentionally ironic post of the year. Try being a woman for even a day. Its not all about male world leadership (though that has its ghastly consequences). Its about so many guys in a position of power, marginalizing women daily.
  - nesadi 7y ago
    > Try being a woman for even a day Because being a woman is automatically harder than being a man? I'm a man every day. I want to kill myself every day. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Who wins? Nobody. Everybody is suffering, yet somehow only women get to have people fight to help them. The response to my comment is telling. Nobody cares about random guy. He should just suck it up and take it like a man.