4 ms·

Wouldn't this imply that excluding places like T_D and more recently, 8chan, further continue to fuel further extremism in groups that already feel marginalized

Wouldn't this imply that excluding places like T_D and more recently, 8chan, further continue to fuel further extremism in groups that already feel marginalized?

raverbashing 7y ago
No, because those places are not there to solve these issues, they are there to entice and use those feelings for political purposes.
scotty79 7y ago
It's a tough one. On one hand 8chan is a source for stupid values to sacralize, on the other it lessens social exclusion and staves off extremist behavior.
- JoeSmithson 7y ago
  How does 8chan stave off extremist behaviour?
  - scotty79 7y ago
    By giving them feeling of belonging somewhere and thus lessening pressure to prove themselves, to get noticed by executing some extremist actions.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      I don't understand how you think that's true when three mass murders are explicitly linked to 8chan.
      - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
        Do you understand that two things can be true at the same time even though they sound like they're opposite to one another? It's entirely reasonable to assume that places like that both prevent many people from falling further down a hole of exclusion but also push others further inside.
        anon9001 7y ago
        You are right and I also believe it's both things, but that's a pretty aggressive comment you've got there.
        watwut 7y ago
        Their further fall into exclusion is stopped, because they are echo-chamber bubble that pushed them further into hate. Social isolation does not make you extremist on itself - contact with extremists that recruit you make you extremist. Social isolation make you more vulnerable to extremists.
      - scotty79 7y ago
        And how many mass murderers were not linked to any online forums or they were so crazy that they got ostracised even on the most extreme forums? Three is just a number if you don't know the sample size. If it's 3 out of 3 million and the US had 600 mass murderers out per 300 million population then 8channer is twice as safe as average Joe. (Made up numbers to illustrate the math).
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        How many shootings are tied to rap music? Maybe we should try banning that one next.
    - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
      I dunno, at the same time people on these communities will try to one-up one another just to get attention. (this isn't limited to just 4/8chan btw, youtube "challenges" like tasering a dead rat or instagram things are other examples)
- XorNot 7y ago
  Anonymous internet message boards with a vague "large" audience are not substitutes for actual social interaction. It's the same problem as Facebook and other social media: people present a curated persona, and ignore that they're only seeing everyone else's curated persona as well. Ad marketing is already well into figuring out how to manufacture "authenticity".
  - scotty79 7y ago
    It is a social interaction and it has effects of one albeit weak. You can have bits of social satisfaction from hearing 'hello, how are you' from a store clerk or from watching people interact on TV. Definitely you can get it from getting responses to you anonymous or curated speach on the internet. Of course its not the same thing as honest interaction with your friend or loved one but it doesn't mean it does nothing for you. Please notice they made people feel isolated by not passing a ball to them in a computer game. Social circuits in the brain are so low level they can be activated by most superficial stimuli.
- DanBC 7y ago
  It doesn't stave off extremist behaviour. It normalises then amplifies extremist behaviour.
netsharc 7y ago
But that's like saying that little neighborhood "mosque" with the hate preacher should be kept open because well, it means the "Muslim" extermists have their community there...
- collyw 7y ago
  Are mosques being closed down?
  - netsharc 7y ago
    I put mosque in quotes because I don't recognise hate preachers' claims to be a representative of the Muslim religion.. and yes, hopefully police are arresting hate preachers and shutting down their congregations. If there are legitimate preachers there, of course the mosque shouldn't be shut down.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      What are you even saying? Also, police should arrest hate preachers? Define 'hate', please.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  I'd rather have that than closed down communities - if it's known then at least steps can be made to steer it back onto the right path.
  - 420codebro 7y ago
    Also it’s a prefect nexus for the FBI to wiretap whomever crosses that path. Magnet for dummies as I would call it.
quantummkv 7y ago
It does, and it is precisely why despite all the exclusion hapening around, we still get shootings and bombings. The people that have somehow wound up in positions of power the tech world seem to believe that placing a carpet over a hole in the floor fixes the hole. And then act surprised when they fall through the hole.
woodruffw 7y ago
Not really. There's reasonable empirical evidence[1] to the contrary: removing large sources/sinks for extremism makes it harder for extremists to unify their message for effective dissemination. [1]: http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf
- finnthehuman 7y ago
  That study is a turd. All it measure is how the floors look when dust is swept under a carpet.
  - woodruffw 7y ago
    AFAICT, there’s no evidence that online moderation hides extremism rather than eliminating it. I’m not old enough to speak seriously about the way the Internet used to be, but I am old enough to remember what happened when I would be banned from a service: I would move on, until I either eventually learned my lesson or I was completely banned. Both are acceptable outcomes and the (unfortunate) consolidation of online communities over the last decade has made the former an easier policy target than the latter.
    - jiberwarrior 7y ago
      However, those who are truly motivated continue to be exiled into smaller and smaller slices of society, until what you have left is environments of concentrated toxicity, but now hidden from the watchful eyes of the general public.

Wouldn't this imply that excluding places like T_D and more recently, 8chan, further continue to fuel further extremism in groups that already feel marginalized?

raverbashing 7y ago

No, because those places are not there to solve these issues, they are there to entice and use those feelings for political purposes.

scotty79 7y ago

It's a tough one. On one hand 8chan is a source for stupid values to sacralize, on the other it lessens social exclusion and staves off extremist behavior.

JoeSmithson 7y ago
How does 8chan stave off extremist behaviour?
- scotty79 7y ago
  By giving them feeling of belonging somewhere and thus lessening pressure to prove themselves, to get noticed by executing some extremist actions.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I don't understand how you think that's true when three mass murders are explicitly linked to 8chan.
    - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
      Do you understand that two things can be true at the same time even though they sound like they're opposite to one another? It's entirely reasonable to assume that places like that both prevent many people from falling further down a hole of exclusion but also push others further inside.
      - anon9001 7y ago
        You are right and I also believe it's both things, but that's a pretty aggressive comment you've got there.
      - watwut 7y ago
        Their further fall into exclusion is stopped, because they are echo-chamber bubble that pushed them further into hate. Social isolation does not make you extremist on itself - contact with extremists that recruit you make you extremist. Social isolation make you more vulnerable to extremists.
    - scotty79 7y ago
      And how many mass murderers were not linked to any online forums or they were so crazy that they got ostracised even on the most extreme forums? Three is just a number if you don't know the sample size. If it's 3 out of 3 million and the US had 600 mass murderers out per 300 million population then 8channer is twice as safe as average Joe. (Made up numbers to illustrate the math).
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      How many shootings are tied to rap music? Maybe we should try banning that one next.
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    I dunno, at the same time people on these communities will try to one-up one another just to get attention. (this isn't limited to just 4/8chan btw, youtube "challenges" like tasering a dead rat or instagram things are other examples)
XorNot 7y ago
Anonymous internet message boards with a vague "large" audience are not substitutes for actual social interaction. It's the same problem as Facebook and other social media: people present a curated persona, and ignore that they're only seeing everyone else's curated persona as well. Ad marketing is already well into figuring out how to manufacture "authenticity".
- scotty79 7y ago
  It is a social interaction and it has effects of one albeit weak. You can have bits of social satisfaction from hearing 'hello, how are you' from a store clerk or from watching people interact on TV. Definitely you can get it from getting responses to you anonymous or curated speach on the internet. Of course its not the same thing as honest interaction with your friend or loved one but it doesn't mean it does nothing for you. Please notice they made people feel isolated by not passing a ball to them in a computer game. Social circuits in the brain are so low level they can be activated by most superficial stimuli.
DanBC 7y ago
It doesn't stave off extremist behaviour. It normalises then amplifies extremist behaviour.

netsharc 7y ago

But that's like saying that little neighborhood "mosque" with the hate preacher should be kept open because well, it means the "Muslim" extermists have their community there...

collyw 7y ago
Are mosques being closed down?
- netsharc 7y ago
  I put mosque in quotes because I don't recognise hate preachers' claims to be a representative of the Muslim religion.. and yes, hopefully police are arresting hate preachers and shutting down their congregations. If there are legitimate preachers there, of course the mosque shouldn't be shut down.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    What are you even saying? Also, police should arrest hate preachers? Define 'hate', please.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
I'd rather have that than closed down communities - if it's known then at least steps can be made to steer it back onto the right path.
- 420codebro 7y ago
  Also it’s a prefect nexus for the FBI to wiretap whomever crosses that path. Magnet for dummies as I would call it.

quantummkv 7y ago

It does, and it is precisely why despite all the exclusion hapening around, we still get shootings and bombings. The people that have somehow wound up in positions of power the tech world seem to believe that placing a carpet over a hole in the floor fixes the hole. And then act surprised when they fall through the hole.

woodruffw 7y ago

Not really. There's reasonable empirical evidence[1] to the contrary: removing large sources/sinks for extremism makes it harder for extremists to unify their message for effective dissemination. [1]: http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf

finnthehuman 7y ago
That study is a turd. All it measure is how the floors look when dust is swept under a carpet.
- woodruffw 7y ago
  AFAICT, there’s no evidence that online moderation hides extremism rather than eliminating it. I’m not old enough to speak seriously about the way the Internet used to be, but I am old enough to remember what happened when I would be banned from a service: I would move on, until I either eventually learned my lesson or I was completely banned. Both are acceptable outcomes and the (unfortunate) consolidation of online communities over the last decade has made the former an easier policy target than the latter.
  - jiberwarrior 7y ago
    However, those who are truly motivated continue to be exiled into smaller and smaller slices of society, until what you have left is environments of concentrated toxicity, but now hidden from the watchful eyes of the general public.